HL Deb 23 March 1964 vol 256 cc1038-40

2.41 p.m.

VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what sums the British Waterways Board and their predecessors have lost since nationalisation through supplying free or cheap water to industries which undertook to send their goods by rail, and how this anomaly can be stopped.]

THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM)

My Lords, I understand from the British Waterways Board that they have no information about any arrangement on such a basis which has been made by their predecessors, whether before or after nationalisation. The Board themselves have, naturally, made no arrangements of this kind. In their recent Interim Report the Board refer to the need for a re-examination of the whole question of free or cheap supplies of water from their waterways. This will undoubtedly have to be considered in the context of future waterways legislation.

VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that Mr. C. M. Marsh, until recently manager of the North-West Division of British Waterways, states quite categorically in a paper he contributed to the Institution of Civil Engineers that such a state of affairs does exist and that the British Waterways Board appears to be supplying water on these terms? I do not know whether the British Railways are aware of this.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, I made it clear that they have made no arrangement on this. As to whether their predecessors, either in the days of the private companies or the British Transport Commission, made any such arrangement, my information from the Waterways Board is that they do not know of it. Perhaps it would be a good thing if what the noble Viscount quotes may be drawn to their attention, if indeed it is so. But to ascertain whether there are any such arrangements in existence there would have to be a lengthy search through the archives—fifteen years' of the B.T.C. and years and years of the private companies—which the British Railways are now storing. To endeavour to provide an accurate answer to the noble Viscount's Question would, I think, entail endless and rather costly work, and probably it would not be very accurate at the end of it.

VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, according to the British Waterways Board's own manager, water is in fact being supplied on these terms; and will he look into these contracts which are stated to exist? Can we have a further examination of this matter? Because the position appears to be quite unsatisfactory, regardless of what British Railways know about it?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, I have already said that I would do that.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether, if it is the case that cheap water is being supplied from which the Waterways Board get no advantage, they have the power to deal with it?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, that is another question. The Question on the Paper relates to cheap supplies in return for an undertaking to send goods by rail. I do not think the noble Lord's question arises out of the original one.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, surely the noble Lord can answer in principle. If there is something unsatisfactory within the ægis of the waterways, surely the British Waterways Board have the power to alter it.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, it is not quite so easy as that. I implied that the whole question of cheap supplies of water was unsatisfactory, and I said that it would have to be considered in the context of future legislation. That is the position. If it could be dealt with now, I should not have needed to say that.

VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS

My Lords, is it really necessary to have an Act of Parliament before Dr. Beeching can speak to Sir John Hawton?

LORD CHESHAM

No, my Lords.