HL Deb 02 June 1964 vol 258 cc412-8

3.45 p.m.

THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF HEALTH (THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN)

My Lords, I should like, if I may, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Craigton, who unfortunately cannot be here to-day, to repeat a statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. It runs in these words:

"With permission, I should like to make a statement to the House on the outbreak in Aberdeen of typhoid fever. The number of patients at present in hospital is 249 of whom 241 are confirmed cases. This is in fact the most serious outbreak since 1937. The first indications of an outbreak appeared on May 19, and the probable source of infection, in a supermarket in Aberdeen, was traced on May 20. The speed with which the focal point of infection was established reflects great credit on the Medical Officer of Health of Aberdeen, Dr. MacQueen, and his staff.

"According to the information with which I have been furnished, the cause of this outbreak has not been finally established. There have been suggestions that the organism causing the epidemic was present in canned corned beef, and this cannot be ruled out. However, there is no foundation for the suggestion that the infection originated in canned corned beef from former Government stocks. No canned meat which investigation has shown could have been in the shop, could have come from these stocks.

"Investigations made revealed that some 6 lb. cans of corned beef from a certain establishment—not from Government stocks—were in the shop at the material time. The establishment at which this corned beef was produced did not, for a period of fifteen months, use in the cooling process chlorinated water. This could conceivably have been a source of infection. The Government are therefore advising that 6 lb. cans produced at this establishment during this period should be withdrawn from sale for the time being.

"As an additional protection, we are also advising that corned beef in 6 lb. cans, produced at another establishment where unchlorinated water was used for cooling, should be withdrawn. I should add, however, that there is no evidence that corned beef from this plant could have been involved in the Aberdeen outbreak.

"Medical officers of health are being advised how they can assist in this operation. We are in touch with the trade and I am sure that they will co-operate with us, as they did last year.

"Although we are taking these precautionary measures, there is no positive evidence at present that the brands to be withdrawn were responsible for the infection. And it must be accepted that many doubts remain unresolved. Because these uncertainties exist, the Government have decided to hold an inquiry under an independent chairman to discover the cause of the epidemic. The report of the inquiry will be published in due course. But I should point out that there is no doubt in my mind that the first priority must be to contain the epidemic which is now in Aberdeen.

"Before I sit down, I should like to take this opportunity, and I am sure the House will join with me, of expressing my profound sympathy with the townspeople of Aberdeen in their misfortune and my admiration for the public services of the City for the way in which they are confronting it."

That is the statement.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, I am quite sure that the whole House will be relieved to hear that the Government intend to institute a public inquiry. Could I ask the noble Marquess two questions? Has he read the report of the proceedings of Aberdeen Town Council yesterday, in which Councillor Mutch drew attention to the depletion in the sanitary services in Aberdeen and urged that they should be brought up to establishment level? In view of this evidence, is the noble Marquess satisfied that the medical officers, who work in the half dozen districts in Scotland where there have been small or large outbreaks, have sufficient help and particularly expertise at their disposal? And what are the Government doing immediately about that?

The other question I want to ask him is this. In view of the fact that we are living in an age in which a great proportion of our food is tinned, are there any regulations which serve to inform distributors of tinned food of what the noble Marquess has just informed the House—namely, that, when cooled, tinned food must be cooled with chlorinated water? Furthermore, after food has been tinned, is any period of time laid down after which that tinned food should not be distributed to the population? I am sorry if my questions have been rather long.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lady for her acceptance of the statement which I have made. I must confess that I have not seen the report of the proceedings yesterday in the Aberdeen Town Council. I think the noble Lady has raised an important point in connection with the sanitary conditions in Aberdeen and other Scottish cities, and, if I may, I should like to take this matter up with my right honourable friend.

On the noble Lady's second point, about whether distributors of these canned goods know about chlorination, my information is that they are quite aware of this. I will make sure of this and let the noble Lady know, but my information, which I am pretty sure is correct, is that they do know that all canned food should come from plants where chlorinated water is used in cooling. So far as I am aware, there is no period of time after which cans brought into this country cannot be sold to the trade.

LORD TAYLOR

My Lords, I understood the Minister to say that it was a period of fifteen months during which this particular firm, presumably in the Argentine, was using non-chlorinated water for this batch of corned beef. Could he say whether the two outbreaks of typhoid last year, one in Harlow and the other, I think, in Bedford, were cases involving this same batch of corned beef? My second question is this. The Minister speaks of an independent chairman for the inquiry. If I remember rightly, the chairman of the inquiry into the Croydon typhoid epidemic, who was a civil servant, had sitting with him a medical assessor and an engineering inspector. Will the chairman in this case be an engineer, or a doctor, or what kind of person will the chairman chosen to carry out this independent inquiry be?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, to take the last question first, I am afraid I cannot at present tell the noble Lord who the chairman is going to be or to what profession he may belong. My right honourable friend has only recently taken this decision, and I do not think he has made up his mind about this. With regard to the two outbreaks last year, my information is that the meat did not come from the same source, although again I believe it was the use of unchlorinated water which was the cause. The meat did not, however, come from the same place.

LORD TAYLOR

My Lords, further to the Minister's reply, it appears, then, that several firms have been using non-chlorinated water from the River Plate to cool this corned beef. Is there any kind of step Her Majesty's Government can take to ensure that in future all corned beef coming from the Argentine is cooled by chlorinated water?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

Yes, my Lords. As a result of what happened last year, my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture now sends his inspectors out to South America for the precise purpose of checking, not only on whether the water is chlorinated, but on the general hygiene of the plant concerned. That is why we hoped this would not occur again.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

My Lords, arising out of the Minister's reply, twice he used the word that his Department is "advising" certain action. May I ask the Minister whether Her Majesty's Government have any mandatory power to prohibit the marketing of this particular batch of corned beef which has been cooled with unchlorinated water, or is the limit of the Government's powers advising in this matter? If this is so, it does not seem to be a very satisfactory position.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, I think I am right in saying that the Government can effect this withdrawal only with the co-operation of the trade concerned. When this happened last year, as I said in my statement, the trades were most co-operative and understanding about it. They are being consulted to-day about the position.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

So the spread of the possible infection relies on the good will of the trade, and not on the power of the Government?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, the Government cannot enforce this at the present time.

THE EARL OF MANSFIELD

My Lords, arising out of the last question put by the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, referring to the period of turnover of these tins, is it not a fact that the contents of the tins must have been contaminated from the time when they were tinned and, therefore, the period of turnover could not affect whether they were originally infected with germs or not?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

That is quite true.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, the noble Marquess may not be aware of what has come through on the tape in the last hour. I understand that tins in this particular shop have been recognised by the manufacturer as tins of corned beef that had been sold to the Ministry of Food in 1951, arid therefore there may be some connection between those tins and those that the medical officer of health believes were infected. The point I want to make is this. These tins were recognised by the manufacturer by the coding on the tin. Can the Minister undertake to see, if the coding can identify these tins as belonging to this particular period when the meat may have been cooled by non-chlorinated water, that the trade, and particularly the retailers, are informed as to the suspected tins, and that those tins, before they are sold, are inspected by a medical officer of health, so that we can do something to prevent the spread of this particular disease?

LORD TAYLOR

My Lords, is it not a fact that inspection, unfortunately is no use, much as I wish it were? Is it not necessary to have bacteriological tests of any tin that is suspected?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

Yes, my Lords. And, also, even if it were possible—which, as the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, has pointed out, it is not—there are so many tins in a consignment that it would be a very difficult operation to inspect them all. However, I will draw the attention of my right honourable friend to what the noble Lord has said. As to his first point, about what came over on the tape just now, I had heard about this. But investigations that we have made at the source from which the shop drew this supply indicate that at no time since it was opened, which is only eight weeks ago, have any supplies been issued which were at any time in the stocks of the Ministry of Agriculture. But this is a matter which will have to be cleared up.

LORD TAYLOR

My Lords, may I ask whether in the stocks of the Ministry of Agriculture there are any tins which have been tinned with the use of non-chlorinated water?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

Yes, my Lords. I think I am right in saying that the use of chlorinated water came into general acceptance only in about the year 1955.

LORD TAYLOR

My Lords, would it not be a wise thing to destroy all tins, wherever they are, which have been produced, if non-chlorinated water has been used?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, I think there is a great deal in what the noble Lord suggests. I also think that this is perhaps a matter which the committee of inquiry will be looking into.

LORD SHEPHERD

Speed!

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, may I ask this final question? If the experts in this matter decide that there is a risk if there is a continuation of the distribution of some of these tins, why is it that the Government have to wait for some firm to give their consent in order to protect the public health of the country?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, I will take note of what the noble Lady says.

LORD TAYLOR

My Lords, I am sorry to press this, but it is obviously very important indeed. If there are large numbers of tins, either in private stock or in Government stock, which have been prepared with non-chlorinated water, as soon as the knowledge is in the hands of the Government should not the sale of these tins forthwith stop?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, I will certainly look into this matter.

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