§ 4.0 p.m.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR EDUCATION AND SCIENCE (LORD NEWTON)My Lords, may I now repeat a statement on "pirate" radio ships and local sound broadcasting which my right honourable friend the Postmaster General has just made in another place? I will use my right honourable friend's own words:
"In order to ensure good reception both here and on the Continent broadcasting frequencies are agreed by the International Telecommunication Union. 'Pirate' radio ships select their own frequencies. This is an infringement of international agreements. If no action is taken against pirate radio, such transmissions from ships outside territorial waters may increase, with the result that radio communications with ships and aeroplanes would be interfered with and human life endangered. Also, such transmissions could well lead to massive interference with the reception of existing radio programmes both in Britain and Europe. As it is, protests of interference have already been received from Belgium and France.
"The Council of Europe has been studying this problem and a draft Convention is now in an advanced stage of preparation. What is required to deal with the problem is concerted international action. The Government therefore propose to await the conclusion of this Convention and then to consider legislating on lines proposed by the Convention. The Government cannot accept the establishment of 'pirate' radio ships as a reason for making precipitate decisions on local sound broadcasting in this country. To legislate for a national service of local sound broadcasting and to establish the necessary machinery for supervision during the remaining months of this Parliament is clearly not practicable. In the next Parliament the Government will undertake the review of the situation foreshadowed in the White Paper on Broadcasting published in 1962 (Cmnd. 1893)."
That, my Lords, is the statement.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHMy Lords, the House will be obliged to the noble Lord for the statement he has made. In the first instance, I will deal with the first part of his statement, leaving something over for a subsequent supplementary on the second part. May I say that we are very glad that the Government have accepted in principle the idea of prohibiting by international Convention pirate radio from ships? Obviously, there is great advantage in its being done by international Convention, because it would not work perfectly unless that were done. Could the noble Lord tell us how soon it is likely that the Council of Europe will settle the terms of an international Convention? Then may we take it that the Government will at once bring in legislation to confirm that Convention?
I notice from the noble Lord's statement that this pirate broadcasting is actually endangering life and limb at sea and in the air. I wonder whether he would be good enough to bring this to the attention of his honourable friends in another place who are interested—and when I say "interested", I mean interested—in this matter, and who have been advocating the right of pirate radio to go on until commercial radio is established in this country? It is a very serious thing if Members of Parliament are engaged in any activity which is calculated to endanger life and limb at sea and in the air.
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, it is expected that the Convention will be ratified by the end of this year and, as I said in my statement, when the Convention has been ratified the Government will consider legislating on lines proposed by it. As regards the danger inherent in the broadcasts, there is no evidence at the moment that the "pirate" ships are interfering with the radio communications of other ships and aircraft, but if there is an increase in the number of these ships, then interference is all too likely to happen. If the equipment used by these "pirate" ships is not well maintained, then that could result in interference with the radio communications of ships.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHMy Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord. Of course, the argument that has been proceeding contemplates a 421 possible increase in "pirate" ships, and therefore responsibility must be accepted. Could the noble Lord say whether it would be possible for the Council of Europe to hasten the settlement of the terms of the Convention? Because it is a pity if we have to wait until the end of the year—which means waiting for a new Parliament—to get legislation on this matter. Is it possible for them to hurry up?
With regard to the future of sound radio, to which the noble Lord has referred, and particularly local sound radio, may I ask him to keep in mind that there is very strong opposition to the introduction of a commercial element in radio? It is bad enough on television. I have heard it in the United States, and it really is worse on radio. Will the noble Lord convey to the Government that some of us are becoming apprehensive about the nation's and the Government's going television and radio mad? These things involve the use of highly skilled labour, electronics and valuable material, and surely we have enough communications going through the air as it is, without assuming that there is no limit to the amount of this development which should he permitted. I would ask the noble Lord—I do not know whether I am speaking for all my noble friends, but I hope so—to convey to the Government that some of us are very anxious about the nation's losing a sense of proportion as to how much national skilled labour and materials should be diverted into an industry which is already quite ample.
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, I do not know whether or not the Council of Europe will decide to speed up its deliberations.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHTell the British representative.
§ LORD NEWTONI can only repeat, as I said in my statement, that the draft Convention is now, as I understand, in an advanced stage of preparation. I take note of what the noble Lord said about the possibility of the introduction of local commercial sound broadcasting in this country. I know very well that the noble Lord has always been a firm opponent of commercial broadcasting and television in this country. I do not know, any more than he does, the extent to which he 422 reflects the view of his Party on this matter. It may be that there are other people, like the noble Lord, who disapprove of people enjoying commercial television and broadcasting; but, on the other hand, there are undoubtedly many people who would welcome the introduction of local broadcasting.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHMy Lords, may I say that I have devoted years of my life to making the people happy. I have done more in that direction than the noble Lord or any other of his colleagues in the Government.
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, perhaps the noble Lord would like to consider that last point when he is further reflecting on the possible advantages or disadvantages of an extension of commercial broadcasting in this country.
§ LORD HOBSONMy Lords, can the noble Lord say why Her Majesty's Government have passed their responsibilities to the Council of Europe, which has no real power, while at the present moment they are signatories to the International Telecommunications Convention which has power to suppress these stations? Why is not action taken? Why do not the Government jam them? Secondly, why is trespassing allowed on Government property by somebody who rejoices in the name of "Radio Sutch" on the old air-towers on the estuary of the Thames? Why is not action taken there?
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, if one considers this in a reasonably cool manner one must see the advantage of there being concerted international action on a matter of this kind. As regards Sutch—I do not know whether I should call him the ignoble Lord, Lord Sutch—I am told that the fort is disused and unmanned, and it has been established that he has not done any harm to it. The possibility that he may be prosecuted for broadcasting in territorial waters is under consideration.
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, may I reinforce the plea made by the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, for urgency in this matter? It is extremely serious. What would happen if one of these stations were to start putting out political propaganda before the Election?
§ LORD NEWTONOne would listen to hear what it was.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHTrue to his previous manifestation of bias, the noble Lord would not be so worried if it was Tory propaganda, but would be very worried if it was Labour propaganda. May I ask the noble Lord whether the statement of my noble friend Lord Hobson, as to powers existing already under the International Telecommunications Convention, is correct? If the Government have power to prohibit this now (which I should presume the Minister is briefed upon one way or the other, and can therefore answer categorically) why do they not use it?
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, I think legislation would be necessary to achieve what the noble Lord would like to see achieved. As regards the content of possible political propaganda, I do not think the noble Lord ought to draw any conclusions as to what I think most beneficial.
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he would clear up one matter which arises out of the question of the noble Lord, Lord Hobson? If another ship went outside the three-mile limit with the sole intention of jamming these existing programmes, would it be acting more or less legally than the ships already there?
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, I do not know, but I think it would be unfortunate, as I said earlier, if anything were to be done to increase the number of pirate radio broadcasts, whether they were jamming each other or not.