§ 2.40 p.m.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD MERTHYR)My Lords, I beg to move That the Amendments set out in a separate paper be made to the Standing Orders relating to Private Bills. I apologise for asking the House at this late stage in the Session to agree to what at first sight seems a formidable list of Amendments, but these have to a large extent been made necessary by the passing of the London Government Act, 1963. The remainder are consequential on the passing of the Defence (Transfer of Functions) Act, 1964, and the Secretary of State for Education and Science Order, 1964. It is necessary for these Amendments to be made now since they will affect various Deposits relating to the next Private Bills Session. They have been agreed by the Ministry of Housing and Local Government, and it is because the agreement of all the appropriate Ministries and authorities has had to be obtained that these Amendments have not been available to your Lordships for as long as I should have liked.
Under the London Government Act, 1963, the London County Council and the metropolitan boroughs will cease to 1092 exist on April 1, 1965. A number of the Amendments which I am now proposing are purely transitional. A further series of Amendments will be necessary after April 1, 1965. The remaining Amendments, which affect the style of Government Departments, are purely drafting. They result from the re-organisation following the passing of the Defence (Transfer of Functions) Act and the instrument to which I have referred.
My Lords, it is important that the Private Bill Standing Orders of the two Houses dealing with Deposits should be, as far as possible, identical. I understand that exactly similar Amendments are being proposed in another place to-day. If there is any question about a specific Amendment which any noble Lord wishes to ask, I will do my best to answer it. My Lords, I beg to move.
§ Moved, That the following Amendments to the Standing Orders relative to Private Bills, et cetera, consequent upon the passing of the London Government Act, 1963, the Defence (Transfer of Functions) Act, 1964, and the Secretary of State for Education and Science Order, 1964, be approved.
§ Standing Order 1, line 2, after ("a")
| insert ("London or") |
§ Standing Order 1, line 25, at end insert—
| ("(dd) the Greater London Council") |
§ Standing Order 1, line 27, after ("a")
| insert ("London or") |
§ Standing Order 1, lines 31 and 32, leave out
| ("the administrative County of London") and insert ("Greater London") |
§ Standing Order 4A, line 14, leave out ("(unless that county is London)")
§ Standing Order 4A, lines 21 and 22, leave
| ("except London") |
§ Standing Order 4A, line 38, after ("means")
| insert ("the Greater London Council") |
§ Standing Order 4A, line 40, after ("a") insert
| ("London or") |
§ Standing Order 10, line 37, at end insert—
| ("(6) This Order shall apply to Greater London as if it were a county.") |
§ Standing Order 16, line 22, at end insert
| ("or, as the case may be, with the Clerk of the Greater London Council") |
§ Standing Order 25, line 17, leave out from
| ("means") to the end of line 22 and insert ("the Greater London Council, the London County Council, the Common Council of the City of London or the council of a county borough, London borough or county district") |
§ Standing Order 27, line 79, at end insert—
| ("(8) This Order shall apply to Greater London as if it were a county and as if the Clerk of the Greater London Council were the clerk of a county council") |
§ Standing Order 28, leave out the Order.
§ Standing Order 31, line 7, leave out("Admiralty") and insert ("Ministry of Defence (Navy Department)")
§ Standing Order 36, line 11, after ("any")
| insert ("London") |
§ Standing Order 39, line 5, leave out ("Air Ministry") and insert ("Ministry of Defence")
§ Standing Order 39, line 6, after the second
| ("of") insert ("Public Building and") |
§ Standing Order 39, line 15, leave out
| ("Admiralty") and insert ("Ministry of Defence (Navy Department)") |
§ Standing Order 39, line 16, leave out
| ("company, body or") |
§ Standing Order 39, line 17, at end insert
| ("and affecting in any way the operations of that person in") |
§ Standing Order 39, line 17 leave out lines 18 to 38 and insert—
| ("(a) any part of Her Majesty's dominions outside the United Kingdom other than the countries mentioned in subsection (3) of section 1 of the British Nationality Act 1948, the Channel Islands and Isle of Man, or | |
| (b) a British protectorate or protected state or the New Hebrides, | |
| at the Colonial Office") |
§ Standing Order 39, line 39, leave out from
| ("which") to ("relates") in line 42 |
§ Standing Order 39, line 49, leave out from
| the first ("or") to ("affects") in line 51 |
§ Standing Order 39, line 53, leave out
| ("Ministry of Education") and insert ("Department of Education and Science") |
§ Standing Order 39, line 56, leave out
| ("Ministry of Education") and insert ("Department of Education and Science") |
§ Standing Order 40, line 6, leave out ("London County") and insert ("Greater London")
§ Standing Order 40, line 6, at end insert—
| ("(2) Where it is proposed to authorise the construction or alteration of any work within the administrative county of London, a copy of the Bill shall also be deposited at the office of the London County Council") |
§ Standing Order 47, line 27, after ("are")
| insert ("the City of") |
§ Standing Order 47, lines 27 and 28, leave out
| ("and boroughs") and insert ("boroughs, other than metropolitan boroughs") |
§ Standing Order 47, line 29, leave out
| ("outside London") |
§ Standing Order 60, line 8, leave out from
| ("Commons") to the end of line 10 |
§ Standing Order 61, line 41, at end insert—
| ("(4) This Order shall apply to Greater London as if it were a county and as if the Clerk of the Greater London Council were the clerk of a county council") |
§ Standing Order 62, lines 12 and 13, leave
| out ("other than London") |
§ Standing Order 65, lines 25 and 26, leave out
| ("other than London") |
§ Standing Order 101, line 16, leave out
| ("London County") and insert ("Greater London") |
§ Standing Order 120, line 10, at end insert—
| ("(2) This Order shall apply to Greater London as if it were a county and as if for the words from 'county road' to 'contribute' there were substituted the word 'road'") |
§ Standing Order 140, lines 5 and 6, leave out
| ("Electricity Commissioners") and insert ("Ministry of Power") |
§ Standing Order 140, line 9, leave out ("or Commissioners")
§ Standing Order 147, line 7, leave out from
| ("Committee") to ("Proof") in line 9 |
§ Standing Order 175, heading, leave out
| ("London County") and insert ("Greater London") |
§ Standing Order 175, line 1, leave out
| ("London County") and insert ("Greater London") |
§ Standing Order 175, lines 2 and 3, leave out
| ("the London County Council (Loans) Act, 1955.") and insert ("paragraphs 25 to 29 of the Second Schedule to the London Government Act 1963.") |
§ Standing Order 175, lines 8 and 9, leave out
| ("the London County Council (Loans) Act, 1955.") and insert ("those paragraphs.") |
§ Standing Order 175, line 9, leave out ("the same") and insert ("those paragraphs")
§ Standing Order 175, line 10, after ("amending") insert ("those paragraphs or")
§ Standing Order 175, leave out lines 41 to 52.
§ Standing Order 176, line 1, after ("Act")
| insert ("whether expressly or by virtue of an order made under s. 84 of the London Government Act 1963") |
§ Standing Order 176, line 1, leave out
| ("London County") and insert ("Greater London") |
§ Standing Order 176, line 5, leave out
| ("London County") and insert ("Greater London") |
§ Standing Order 177, lines 1 and 2, leave out
| ("London County") and insert ("Greater London") |
§ Standing Order 177, line 3, leave out ("the
| Consolidated Loans") and insert ("their General") |
§ Standing Order 198, line 9, leave out from
| ("Commons") to the end of line 11. |
§ Appendix A, line 18, leave out from
| ("with the") to ("A copy") in line 21 and insert ("[here insert the clerks of the local authorities with whom deposit is required by the Standing Orders]") |
§ Proposed New Standing Order
§ Local authorities affected by London Government Act 1963
§ (1) References in these Standing Orders to local authorities and their areas shall—
- (a) in relation to a Bill promoted by the Greater London Council or the council of a London borough, be construed as references to authorities and areas as they will exist on 1st April 1965 by virtue of the London Government Act 1963 or any order made under that Act;
- (b) in relation to any other Bill, be construed as references to authorities and areas as they exist before and as they will exist after 1st April 1965.
§ (2) This Order shall cease to have effect on 1st April 1965.—(Lord Merthyr.)
§ 2.43 p.m.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHMy Lords, the noble Lord is quite right in saying that these Amendments have come up very late. I confess that I have not had time to study them, so I do not know what we are talking about, and I do not believe many other noble Lords do either, except the Lord Chairman of Committees. It is not very satisfactory that this should be done in this way; but I have said for a long time that this House is treated very badly at the end of a Parliamentary Session, except perhaps when the Labour Government were in power. We took a great deal of care of this House before I was a Member of it, and I do not see why I should not go on taking care of it. But could the noble Lord say which Private Bills—these are all Private Bills, though it is not quite clear why a Private Bill comes up on a Ministry of Defence transaction which should have been dealt with in public legislation or delegated legislation—are affected by the London Government Act, 1963?
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEESMy Lords, no particular or specific Private Bills are so far affected. These are Standing Orders relating to all Private Bills that may hereafter be introduced into the House. I cannot, of course, say what Bills will be moved or proposed in the next Session or in subsequent Sessions. I am sorry, therefore, that I cannot refer to any particular Private Bills. It remains to be seen what Bills will come forward, and it will apply to them as appropriate. I apologise for the delay, but this Paper has been issued for about two days and, as I have said already, we have tried to and succeeded in obtaining general agreement before I moved this Motion.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHMy Lords, with the leave of the House, may I put this to the Lord Chairman of Committees? It may be that the Papers have been available for two days, but that is not very long and I should have thought it would have been wise to draw our attention to the matter at an earlier stage so that we could be on guard. I must confess that I am still more mystified by the fact that the Lord Chairman of Committees does not know which Private Bills may be affected, and it looks as if they will not be affected until the next Session. In that case I cannot quite see the hurry about it. If he cannot name the Bills, can he say in what circumstances these Bills will be advantaged in their progress and what is the need to protect them by these methods?
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEESMy Lords, as I have said, I cannot, and I do not think anybody can, say at this stage what Private Bills will be introduced in the next Session. As your Lordships know, Private Bills in every Session have to be introduced by one particular date. The date is November 29. Until that date nobody knows—at least, I certainly do not—what the list of Private Bills will be. But there is a reason for altering these Standing Orders now because, although the Private Bills are not introduced until the end of November, many of them are probably being drafted at this moment in their initial stages, and the promoters of Private Bills want to know what Standing Orders they have to comply with in the drafting of the Private Bills and in the various processes which are necessary for their introduction. So it would be of great help to the promoters, I do not doubt, if they could know now exactly what the Standing Orders will be.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGHMy Lords, we are always grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, the Lord Chairman of Committees, for many courtesies he exercises towards us. However, I must say that we have been caught on this matter by the shortness of the time, and it was late in being put before the House. I do not understand what he meant on this occasion when he said that there was general agreement. Certainly the usual channels, including myself, have had no consultations whatsoever on this matter.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEESMy Lords, I am sorry if I did not make myself plain. I meant general agreement with the Government Departments and the local authorities; for instance, the London County Council and the Greater London Council. That is what I meant by "general agreement". I did not mean agreement with anybody in this House.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGHMy Lords, I should have thought that in any event Parliament needed to be consulted on these matters. Parliament has to know when Second Readings of Bills are coming up and the like. And it is not merely the particular authorities which the noble Lord mentioned, and for which of course, I have respect, that can produce a Private Bill: any citizen can do so. The whole citizenship has to be considered. I agree that the principal number of such Bills may come from local authorities and the like; but private trading organisations also bring Bills before Parliament. How it is possible to get general agreement on this matter, and without consulting the Opposition, I do not know.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEESMy Lords, it is true I have not attempted to get the agreement of all the potential promoters of Private Bills because I do not know who they will be. It is impossible to know, as I have said already, who will be introducing Private Bills in the next Session. But we know that quite a number of people are going to do so, and what we want to have is an up-to-date set of Standing Orders known to them, in advance if possible, with which they can and will comply. It will be a great help to them if they could know now exactly what the up-to-date Standing Orders are. Most of these Amendments are drafting or consequential Amendments, although not quite all of them, and, as I have said, it would be a great help. I admit that it would be possible to defer them until the beginning of the next Session, but it would cause additional inconvenience. I will not put it higher than that.
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, could the noble Lord tell us why the constitutional requirements in regard to the present Session will not be suitable for Private Bills arising in the next Session? We have not so far been given any 1099 explanation as to what change is required now, in these last two days of Parliament, from what is happening this Session to what will be required next Session.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEESMy Lords, because of the passing of the three Acts of Parliament and Orders which I have already mentioned. It is because of the passing, for example, of the Greater London Act. If I may give one more example, the Standing Orders refer to county councils, but the Greater London Council will not be a county council. Therefore, the Standing Orders must be amended to include some reference to the Greater London Council. I hope that that is a satisfactory example—it is no more than an example—of the need for keeping the Standing Orders up to date. If we did not make this Amendment, we should have Standing Orders which did not deal at all with the Greater London Council. That, I think, would be unfortunate, I think that it is essential to keep our Standing Orders up to date, to conform to the differences caused by the passage of that Act and of the others to which I have already referred.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGHMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees, whether, in all the circumstances—and this is in no sense an expression of hostility—with 25 Amendments, some of them formal but others we should like to look at, he would not agree to adjourning a decision on this matter until to-morrow?
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEESMy Lords, I will ask leave of the House to withdraw this Motion to-day, and put it down either to-morrow or on the first day of the next Session.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHTo-morrow will be all right.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.