HL Deb 07 July 1964 vol 259 cc926-8
LORD CONESFORD

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what was the total of capital and recurrent grants to university institutions in 1959 and in the present year; and what increase in the number of university institutions and of students and staff has taken place in the same period.]

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH

My Lords, in 1959 capital and recurrent Exchequer grants to the universities totalled £58 million; for the current year they are estimated at £133 million. In 1959 there were 24 university institutions; there are now 33. Over the same period the number of full-time students has risen from 104,000 to 125,000; and the number of full-time teachers has increased from 12,000 to 15,000. All these figures are exclusive of the colleges of advanced technology and certain Scottish central institutions which are in the process of achieving university status.

LORD CONESFORD

My Lords, may I thank my noble friend for his Answer and for the figures, which will be studied with great interest? May I ask him whether he can say what is the proportion of women among the students?

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH

My Lords, in 1959–60 about 24 per cent. of students in universities were women. In this year the figure is about 27 per cent.

EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, does that mean that even to-day women are being turned away because there are not sufficient places?

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH

My Lords, I do not think that is the case.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, would the noble Earl look into that and let us know whether they are being turned away?

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH

Certainly.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, would the noble Earl reconsider the reply that it was not the case that women are being turned away?

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH

My Lords, this is a question beyond the scope of the one on the Order Paper, and of course there is not any particular reason why I should answer it. I do not think women are being turned away more frequently than men. It is all a question of their qualifications. If they achieve the right qualifications they will get to the university.

EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, I thought the Minister would be better informed; because we have had other reports from time to time—there was one about Scotland quite recently in the debate in another place—that women are being turned away because of lack of places. I do not expect him to know everything about his Department, but I thought he might keep his promise to my noble friend Lady Summerskill and let us know the facts.

LORD CONESFORD

My Lords, is it not possible that there is a good deal of confusion about what is meant by "turned away"?

EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

Not provided with places at the time of application.

THE LORD BISHOP OF EXETER

My Lords, is it not a fact that in the University of Oxford there are a number of places for women, particularly in the natural sciences, which the university colleges at Oxford have been unable to fill? I say this only because my own daughter, who is not, I should have thought, all that bright, has got in.

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH

I am very grateful to the right reverend Prelate, who is entirely correct in his statement, but the question from the other side of the House in fact referred to women in general. There is no doubt whatever that there are places going in chemistry departments in the universities of Newcastle and Leeds and many others, but unfortunately there have not been sufficient applications from women having sufficient qualifications.

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, does the Minister concur with the right reverend Prelate in his reference to Oxford or in his reference to his daughter?

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that in referring to his daughter the right reverend Prelate broke all the known rules?

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, on this most important matter may I ask the noble Earl this?—because he has made inquiries on the important question of the education of women. If he inquires further he will find that in many schools they find it difficult to get science teachers at all, and this is the inevitable repercussion. This was told me by the President of the Headmistresses' Association. I think that if this position were remedied he would not find a lack of applicants for places in universities.

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH

My Lords, I hope soon to have a meeting with the noble Baroness and to discuss this matter with her.