HL Deb 06 July 1964 vol 259 cc812-4

2.40 p.m.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that in September, 1962, the National Council on Inland Transport submitted proposals to the Prime Minister for improving our transport system which included:

  1. (a) An impartial assessment of the true costs of each form of transport and a fiscal policy designed to ensure that each form bore a proper share of the costs to which it gave rise;
  2. (b) The application by the British Railways Board of the Light Railways Act of 1896 to lightly used branch lines where such action might make the services viable;
that these policies, which were rejected by Her Majesty's Government, have now been adopted by the British Railways Board; whether this indicates a change in Government policy; and if so, whether they will suspend further action on stopping train and branch line closures until the effect on the lines proposed for closure in the Reshaping of British Railways can be fully considered.]

THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LARD CHESHAM)

My Lords, Her Majesty's Government gave a full reply on February 7,1963, to the Memorandum to which the noble Lord refers. As he undoubtedly realises, neither the recent Memorandum by the British Railways Board, to which part of his Question seems to relate, nor any plans the Board may have for action under the Light Railways Act, are expressions of Government policy. These developments therefore lend no support to the suggestions for Government action made by the noble Lord in the last part of his Question.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, is it not the case that, if action were to be taken under the Light Railways Act, the Ministry of Transport must consent to such action? Is the noble Lord aware that the apparently inspired articles on this subject in The Times said that the operation of the Light Railways Act would reduce losses on the central railway lines from £176,000 to £30,000, and that proportionate savings on other lines could turn profit into loss and dispel the economic case for closure? Would it therefore not be a good thing to consider the application of the Light Railways Act to many other lines which people are desperately anxious to save?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, the noble Lord really must understand that there is nothing new in this situation, in that both economies and different kinds and sizes of train have always been open to the Railways Board on these matters, either with or without the operation of the Light Railways Act. At times it may be useful or appropriate to use it; at times it may not; but these are the kinds of considerations which are taken into account in every case of a closure proposal.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that my Question points out that there is nothing new in this proposal? What is new, according to The Times, and unless the noble Lord says that this is a complete fabrication, is that his right honourable friend the Minister is now considering this project in connection with a particular line. Will the noble Lord say whether this is so, and, if so, whether it marks a change in policy?

LORD CHESHAM

I thought that 1 had just pointed out—apparently I did not do so very clearly—on the aspect of the noble Lord's Question which I thought referred to something new, when he referred to a change in policy, that in fact there is no change of policy.

LORD STONHAM

On the other aspect of my Question, will the noble Lord say whether he is aware that, according to Dr. Beeching, the cost per ton by rail is one-third of a penny and by road four-fifths of a penny per mile; that lorries are paying less than half their true costs; and that a proper balance of road and railways will not emerge unless each bears a proper share? Does he agree with this sentiment, and if so, can he say what the Government are going to do about it.

LORD CHESHAM

The noble Lord will of course already be aware that this is a Memorandum which has been produced by the British Railways Board on their own responsibility. I will go as far as I can with the noble Lord and say that I think it would be useful to know more about the situation; and that is why we in my right honourable friend's Department are carrying out a study of these very matters. The Railways Board's Memorandum we regard, I think in common with the Railways Board, as a useful addition to research and thinking on this important subject.

LORD STONHAM

While expressing my grateful thanks to the noble Lord for that second reply, may I ask him whether the decisions which will be reached by his right honourable friend and himself, after these deliberations, will be made available to the House?

LORD CHESHAM

It has already been announced—and if the information has not yet reached the noble Lord, I am delighted to confirm it—that the results will he submitted to the Geddes Committee, which is sitting on road licensing, and made public.