§ 2.35 p.m.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether a decision has been reached to move the John Innes Institute from its present site at Bayfordbury, Hertford, to the neighbourhood of Norwich, and to inquire further in what respect its present quarters have been found unsuitable for its work, how much public money has been expended in establishing it and the necessary ancillary buildings on its present site, and what further public expenditure will be involved in establishing it in its proposed new quarters.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EDUCATION AND SCIENCE (THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH)My Lords, the report of the Agricultural Research 133 Council for the year 1961–62 (Cmnd. 2089) stated that consideration had been given to the future work and location of the John Innes Institute, and, as announced by the University of East Anglia and the John Innes trustees, formal academic relations are to be established between the University and the Institute in anticipation of the transfer of the Institute to Norwich. The trustees of the charity have recently decided, with the agreement of the Agricultural Research Council, to move the Institute from Bayfordbury to Norwich in order to derive full benefits from the alliance. There are strong arguments for closer co-operation between Government supported research establishments and universities. It is for this reason that the trustees have decided on the move; and the Council of the University of East Anglia and the Agricultural Research Council have welcomed the trustees' proposal.
Since the Institute was established at Bayfordbury in 1949 a total outlay of £222,000 has been incurred by way of capital grants from public funds by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Agricultural Research Council. £100,000 of this was for experimental glasshouses of limited life; the remainder was for conversion of the Bayfordbury Mansion, road and other works, and for fixed equipment. The cost of establishing the Institute at Norwich is expected to be borne mainly by the John Innes Charity. Expenditure from public funds w ill be limited largely to the provision of equipment. The amount and cost of this cannot be precisely estimated until the programme of research to be undertaken at Norwich has been finally determined.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I should like to ask whether there are any purely scientific reasons which make the present situation of the Institute unsuitable or is it purely a matter of academic reasons? If that is the answer, do Her Majesty's Government feel that these purely academic reasons for bringing the Institute nearer to the University justify wasting £220,000 of public funds?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, I do not think that we can describe this expenditure as a waste, but 134 I would say this in answer to the noble Marquess's supplementary. I do not think anyone has said that the present accommodation is itself unsuitable, but there are advantages in siting smaller or medium-sized research institutes nearer to universities. The arguments were very clearly set out, I think, in the Zuckerman Committee's Report in 1961. In this case, the partnership of the School of Biological Sciences of the University and the Food Research Institute of the Agricultural Research Council with the John Innes Institute should make possible the development of a really outstanding national centre of biological training and research.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, when I was Lord President I knew this Institute well, and I have known it since because I live in the neighbourhood. I have never heard it said before that the present site was not perfect from a purely scientific point of view. I should be very grateful if the noble Earl would bring to the notice of his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science what has been said to-day. We are always being urged to economise in every way we can. This seems to me to be a quite unwarrantable expenditure of public funds.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, I will certainly draw this matter to the attention of my right honourable friend, who I know would be very willing to have a private talk with the noble Marquess on this matter. I would add that I hope to visit the establishment myself in the very near future.
§ LORD MOLSONMy Lords, have the Government any use in view for the accommodation that is to be vacated?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, I do not think that any decision has yet been taken in regard to the use of the existing accommodation, but, of course, it will be sold and the value of the land no doubt will help the trustees in the transfer to Norwich.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, is the land in the Green Belt?
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, is the Minister aware of the discussions now going on about the possibility of creating a university at Hatfield, which would seem to he appropriately related to the John Innes Institute. Will he consider this point, too, in considering the future work of the Institute?—because I fully accept the principle that the Institute should be located in relation to a university.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, I think that the noble Marquess's beautiful house would certainly form an admirable part of a university, but this is far beyond the Question which the noble Marquess put to me at the beginning.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, I was not really proposing to take over the noble Marquess's house—though it is a jolly good idea; I was thinking of Hatfield Technical College and of the proposal to move the Chelsea Polytechnic out to create a new technical college at Hatfield.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I can assure the noble Earl that that was not what was in my mind.