§ 2.44 p.m.
THE EARL OF ARRANMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the invasion of Clacton by young motor-bicyclists and others on Easter Sunday, and of the consistently heavy casualty rates amongst the youngest age groups, they will consider raising the age for obtaining a licence to ride motor bicycles, mopeds and motor scooters from 16 to 19.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM)My Lords, Her Majesty's Government do not consider it 136 necessary to raise the minimum age for riding a motor cycle from 16 to 19 on either account. It is most unlikely that disturbances of the kind which took place at Clacton would be avoided by preventing young people from riding motor-cycles. In any case, it appears that the worst offenders at Clacton were in fact, travelling in cars and vans.
The casualty rate among, 16 to 19 year-old motor-cyclists is certainly high; but there is no evidence that being within this group age, as such, has any effect on the rate. A survey of accidents to motorcyclists aged 16 to 20 years pointed to inexperience rather than age as a significant factor. Riders aged 16 years were naturally less experienced, but when the figures had been adjusted to eliminate the effect of the experience factors, riders of this age were not found to have differed from other riders under the age of 21 years. The same conclusion holds within the age range 17 to 20 years. What I have said applies equally to motor-scooters and mopeds.
THE EARL OF ARRANMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his Answer, I would ask: is it not a simple fact that some 40 per cent. of those killed or seriously injured on the roads on two-wheeled vehicles are between the ages of 16 and 19? Will the Government not agree that the ambitions of most boys of 16 and 17 is to go as fast as possible so as to impress their friends, male and female, and that they can hardly be said to be responsible drivers at speeds of up to 100 m.p.h.? Finally, will the Government not agree that inability to obtain a licence would surely be a major factor in putting an end to hooliganism resulting from such incidents as the drive to Clacton and other such incidents in future, which are at the moment being planned.
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, with the second part of the noble Earl's question, I frankly would not agree. I doubt whether it is true that the people who perpetrate this kind of behaviour are all riders of motor-cycles, and I certainly do not believe that most people who ride motor-cycles behave in this way. That suggestion I would frankly reject. So far as the first part of the noble Earl's question is concerned, I think that there is a basic principle of truth in what the noble Earl 137 said, and the Government have already acted in this matter. They brought in a regulation limiting the size of motorcycle that could be ridden until experience had been gained. We are now actively considering how to support further the R.A.C.-A.C.U. training scheme, because everything points to experience being the important factor, rather than age.
THE EARL OF ARRANMy Lords, whereas it is true that the holders of provisional licences may drive a motor bicycle only up to a certain cubic centimetrage, as soon as they obtain a full licence, which they can do quickly, then the sky is literally the limit.
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, there are certainly no restrictions on what a man can ride, once he has a full licence.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHMy Lords, while I do not entirely accept the view of the noble Earl about those taking part in these, sad things at Clacton and motor-cycles, as it may be that I fixed these ages in the Road Traffic Act, 1930, with the assent of Parliament (they may have been altered since; I am not sure), would the noble Lord ask his right honourable friend the Minister to keep an open mind on the point raised by the noble Earl? In view of the increasing density of traffic and the difficulty of travel, is there not a question as to whether not only the starting age for riding motor-cycles but also the minimum age for driving motor cars is too ïow? I urge the noble Lord not to drift into a mood of dogmatism about this. It is the kind of point which should be subject to review from time to time.
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, as the noble Lord well knows, neither my right honourable friend nor I am ever dogmatic about anything. I think I can prove that by reminding the noble Lord that in the Road Traffic Act, 1962, power was taken to enable the Minister to adjust the minimum ages according to circumstances. Therefore, I can say not only that I will repeat the noble Lord's words to my right honourable friend, but also that he has already shown himself to have an open mind on the subject.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, in case the noble Lord's adverse attitude 138 towards raising the age is in any way so influenced, may I ask whether he is in a position to indicate what would be the loss of revenue to the Exchequer should the age be raised? Also, would he himself perhaps be biased in the matter by any difference of assessment between the behaviour of "mods" and "rockers"?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, the first part of the question I could not answer without notice. In answer to the second part, I hold no brief for "mods" or "rockers". The only thing I would say is that we should preserve a balanced sense of proportion in these matters and not be misled by exaggerated accounts of things which may not in the event have happened.
§ LORD ROBERTSON OF OAKRIDGEMy Lords, could I ask the noble Lord whether he would agree (I ask this supplementary question without pointing it at anybody who has spoken on this question) that many of those who are so free with advice as to how the iniquities of the young could be brought to an end would be even more helpful if they would devote some of their personal time and money to helping those many organisations which exist to divert this youthful exuberance into more useful channels?
§ LORD CHESHAMThat may well be so, my Lords. I think I should say no more than I hear directly from the police—not via my tape recorder or vacuum cleaner which, quite contrary to what the noble Earl has suggested, is that it was basically frustration and boredom which was at the bottom of this affair at Clacton.
THE EARL OF ARRANAll the same, my Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the proposed Jazz Festival at Brighton has recently been cancelled on police advice, because there is a threat, apparently, by 1,000 "mods" and "rockers" to invade the stadium?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, of that I have no knowledge, as I have no official membership of either side. But I think that if the Jazz Festival the noble Earl mentions were in fact to be held, the people whom he alleges constitute the threat would go there, anyway, irrespective of whether they have motor-cycles or not.
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, do Her Majesty's Government really consider it desirable to suggest that boredom is an excuse for criminal conduct?
§ LORD CHESHAMNo, my Lords. I do not think I suggested anything of the kind. I did not say it was the excuse. I said it was the reason.
§ LORD FRANCIS-WILLIAMSMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that, since it seems quite clear that boredom and frustration were at the bottom of the Clacton affair, we ought to devote ourselves to trying to create a society which will give young people more a sense of belonging to it rather than taking away from them their motorcycles and thus increasing their boredom.
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, that is what I took to be the sense of the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Oakridge.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHMy Lords, is it not the case that there are more opportunities for young people to make interesting use of their spare time than ever there were some years ago? Surely the noble Lord is not going to swallow the stuff that appeared on television by these young people, who, despite all the money we are spending on their education, cannot even speak the Queen's English with reasonable pronunciation. Is he going to excuse that by saying that any young person who says he is bored is entitled to go in for all the riotous and anti-social conduct that he wishes?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, I thought I had just made it clear that I was not claiming any such thing.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHYou were, you know.
§ LORD CHESHAMThe noble Lord must have misheard me, because I agree entirely with what he has said.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHThank you.
§ LORD CHESHAMIt is almost the first opportunity I have had, and I am as pleased as the noble Lord. I agree 140 that the opportunities for young people to-day are better than they have been for a long time. But if I make a factual statement that the reason why these things happened at Clacton was because these young people had gone there with no organisation, no plans and very little money, and the weather was filthy, and they were frustrated and bored because of that set of circumstances, I am not to be taken as laying down a principle that boredom is an excuse for bad behaviour. It is not. It is the reason for the bad behaviour, and no more.