HL Deb 09 May 1963 vol 249 cc851-3

3.9 p.m.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government to state at the latest date for which figures are available, the number of inmates of Her Majesty's prisons, who were epileptics, and what plans they have for the segregation of such persons either in special prisons or in sections of ordinary prisons.]

THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (EARL JELLICOE)

My Lords, the number of epileptics in prison at any one time is not centrally recorded. As stated in the Annual Report for 1961, in that year 293 undoubted cases of epilepsy were diagnosed, and 254 doubtful cases. It is not proposed to set aside a special prison for epileptics. Whether a prisoner suffering from epilepsy is located in the prison hospital or in the main prison is a matter for the medical officer's discretion. In either case, specially equipped rooms are provided. Epileptics sleep in rooms or wards for three or more, where practicable, in order that assistance may more readily be obtained if necessary. Epileptics would not, however, be located three in a cell of the ordinary size, since this would require a double-tier bunk.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the figures he has quoted indicate that the proportion of epileptics in prison is very much higher than the proportion in the community, and there is therefore a presumption that many men are in prison because they are epileptics and not because they are criminals? With regard to the second part of his Answer, is he aware that epileptics need fresh air and movement and that they are likely to become dangerous and violent when kept in close confinement, and will he therefore look into the regulation which forbids transfer of these sufferers to open prisons.

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I do not think I could necessarily accept the assumption on which the first part of the noble Lord's supplementary question was based, and I would remind him that, of the cases which I mentioned in my original reply, only approximately half were undoubted epileptic cases. So far as open prisons are concerned, I should like to point out to the noble Lord that the difficulty here is to see that there is sufficiently close medical supervision in open prisons for epileptic prisoners.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether he has studied the cases which I sent to him, and whether he would look into the allegations that epileptics were immediately deprived of drugs on entering prison; that one of them, an innocent man, spent ten weeks in solitary confinement before he was released and lost three and a half stone in weight, and that he had no treatment until he was removed from Stafford to Wormwood Scrubs prison? It does not appear that these sufferers are being treated in accordance with their medical needs, which is a very serious matter indeed. Can the noble Earl look into that?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I have, of course, studied the information which the noble Lord was good enough to communicate to me, and I have called for reports from the three prisons mentioned in his letter to me. Meanwhile, pending the receipt of reports from those prisons, I must of course not be taken as accepting any of the allegations in the letter which the noble Lord was good enough to communicate to me.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, while agreeing that the noble Earl does not accept any of the allegations, what I am concerned with is not merely the three prisons but the general medical treatment accorded to epileptics. Will he look into that generally and make sure that they are not deprived of drugs, and that all prisoners are given the treatment that their medical condition requires?

EARL JELLICOE

Yes, my Lords.

LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU

My Lords, while going into the subject, would the noble Earl note that one of the most dangerous aspects of epileptics in prison is the fact that during the night warders do not have keys to individual cells, and when epileptics have fits there is no way of getting at them until the morning?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I quite realise that there is this need to be able to summon help, bat of course there are bells provided in the particular cells concerned.

LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU

Yes, but the warders do not have keys to cell doors at nights. The only thing they can do is to rouse the assistant governor, which sometimes takes many hours and sometimes the doors are not opened until the morning.

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, my information on this point does not quite square with the noble Lord's, but I should like to look into the detailed point that he has brought to my consideration.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, while the noble Earl is looking into it, will he look into a fact, which is equally relevant, that the bells which will enable a sufferer, if lie can, to summon help are seven or eight feet high above the ground, and that this often makes the summoning impracticable?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I believe this was a point in the letter which the noble Lord was good enough to hand to me, and I have already said that I will look into that matter.