§ 2.45 p.m.
§ LORD COLYTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what provision the Secretary-General of the United Nations has made for the designation of United Nations experts to advise and assist in preparing the arrangements for the self-determination of the Papuan inhabitants of West New Guinea in 1969, 551 as required by Article XVI of the agreement between Indonesia and the Netherlands.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF DUNDEE)My Lords, when speaking, on behalf of the Secretary-General of the United Nations, at the ceremony transferring full administrative responsibility to the Government of Indonesia on May 1, Mr. Narasimhan, U Thant's Special Envoy for political affairs, said:
In consultation with the Government of Indonesia, I have decided in principle to designate a few United Nations experts, serving at headquarters and elsewhere, to perform the functions envisaged in Article XVI of the Agreement. These experts will visit West New Guinea as often as may be necessary and spend such time as may be required to enable them to report fully to me".
§ LORD COLYTONMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for his reply, I would ask him three questions. First, as I understand it from Article XVI of the Agreement these experts were to remain in New Guinea during the period before self-determination. Second, I believe there has been no transfer of sovereignty to Indonesia. There has been only a transfer of administration. Can my noble friend tell me where the sovereignty now resides? Third, is it not rather a bad thing that the first action of the Indonesian Government should be to disband the first freely-elected representative Council ever to exist in New Guinea, which Council has in fact, under Articles XIV and XVIII, to be consulted from time to time after the transfer of administration to Indonesia?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, the first question asked about Article XVI, which says that the duties of these United Nations experts, prior to the arrival of the United Nations' representative who will participate in the arrangements for self-determination, will be limited to advice or assistance in preparations to carry out the provisions for self-determination, except in so far as Indonesia and the Secretary-General may agree on their performing other expert functions. They will be responsible to the Secretary-General for the carrying out of their duties. I do not know whether there was any stipulation that they should always be there. In reply to the second 552 question, I think that technically the sovereignty resides with the United Nations until after the plebiscite has been held. I am sorry, but I did not quite catch the gist of the third question.
§ LORD COLYTONThe third question was whether it was not a bad sign that the first act of the Indonesian authorities was to disband the freely elected representative Council which under the agreement has a part to play in these matters of self-determination.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, it does not sound at all a good sign, I quite agree.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, now that these poor people have been handed over to the inefficient and corrupt Indonesian Government—
§ LORD OGMOREThat is true. Is it not a fact that it would be quite intolerable if the United Nations abrogated their responsibility and merely sent experts in occasionally? Should they not be there all the time to see that some slight measure of justice may be accorded to these poor people?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I think that that is a matter of opinion, which sounds reasonable to me. I would make it plain that Her Majesty's Government, not having been a party to the agreement, have no responsibility and that I ought not to enter into a debate on matters of opinion.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, why does the noble Earl say that Her Majesty's Government have no responsibility? Of course they have. Her Majesty's Government are a member of the Security Council, a Permanent Member, and a member of the Assembly of the United Nations, and to say that the Government have no responsibility is an act of complete irresponsibility.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, if there were any emergency arising out of this matter or any question brought before the Security Council we would play our part, but it is quite misleading to say that, because we are a member of the Security Council, we have any kind of primary responsibility for this agreement. If we are to be held responsible 553 for everything that is done by the United Nations all over the world, Heaven help us!
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, is it not a question of maintaining a matter of principle, which has always surely been in the minds of any British Government, to see that justice is done in countries like this, especially in a territory where, unless this tendency of the Indonesians is properly curbed and watched for justice, it will spread to the other part of New Guinea, in which, as a Commonwealth, we are interested?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, it so happens that in the short time I was at the United Nations eighteen months ago, I had to make the pronouncement about our attitude to West New Guinea before the United Nations arrived at this decision. We felt it was a great pity that the inhabitants of Indonesia should not be given a better opportunity of expressing their opinion according to the principles of self-determination, but we are not going to get very much further if we are going on the assumption that whatever we say in New York, Her Majesty's Government are to be held responsible for what the United Nations does.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHSurely we ought to hold the Government responsible for the attitude they take in relation to the British people?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I have just tried to tell the noble Earl what action I took in giving our advice on this subject to the United Nations.