HL Deb 07 May 1963 vol 249 cc547-50

2.39 p.m.

LORD WISE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether negotiations are taking place with Denmark and other European countries regarding alterations in terms of the importation of agricultural products into this country, and if so, can definite assurances be given to British and Commonwealth farmers that no agreements for increased imports or otherwise will be entered into which could be detrimental to their interests as agricultural producers.]

THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (LORD ST. OSWALD)

My Lords, as my right honourable friend said on February 27, EFTA Ministers, at their Geneva meeting on February 18 and 19, instructed the Permanent Representatives to prepare a detailed programme for the speedier elimination of the remaining tariffs on industrial goods. Trade in agricultural goods was also to be discussed. The bilateral talks with the Danes and others have been held in this context, as a preliminary to decisions by Ministers in Lisbon. In the discussions at Lisbon, United Kingdom Ministers will have very much in mind the need to maintain a proper balance between home-grown and imported food supplies, including those from the Commonwealth, with fair opportunities for our own farmers and consideration for the interests of consumers.

LORD WISE

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask him whether, before any decision is arrived at, full consultation will take place with the Commonwealth producers, as well as our home producers? Because we are very scared that some arrangements will be made which may be detrimental to the interests of home farmers and those in the Commonwealth, to the advantage of the European countries.

LORD ST. OSWALD

My Lords, until we know what course the negotiations in Lisbon are going to take, I do not think I can give the noble Lord that assurance.

EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, may I press this matter? This, surely, is of vast importance to all the farmers in this country, as well as to the consumers. If I am right in gathering from that answer that the Government feel they are entitled to go into the EFTA Conference and enter into commitments in advance of further consultations with the Commonwealth and with home producers, I think it would be disastrous.

LORD ST. OSWALD

I do not know whether the noble Earl and his noble friend are referring to ratification or to a point of agreement which might be reached in Lisbon. Ratification is a very different thing, naturally, from a point of agreement among the EFTA countries.

EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

But, surely, that is rather burking the issue. It is no good making agreements with each of these countries and then proceeding to ratification afterwards. Surely, before agreements are finalised between the countries concerned in Europe and the Government, the question whether there is an agreement or not ought first to be discussed with Commonwealth producers and with the home producers as well. I am very dissatisfied with the answer which the noble Lord has given.

LORD ST. OSWALD

In my original Answer I have already given an assurance that the interests of the Commonwealth nations would be taken into account; and, naturally, this Government always have the interests of Commonwealth trade very much at heart as well as in mind.

EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

May I ask, then, whether the Government will give a pledge now that there will be no increase in quotas or the grant of more preferential terms to EFTA countries before they have taken into consideration the position of the Commonwealth and the home producers, and especially that there will be no restriction on output in this country where the farmers have made such an enormous contribution to our balance of payments?

LORD ST. OSWALD

I have already said that all those interests would be taken into account in the negotiations.

THE EARL OF SANDWICH

My Lords, will the Treasury, acting on behalf of the taxpayers, also be consulted before the Lisbon meeting? Every time tariff reductions take place in these negotiations with EFTA or any other group of countries, the price of food falls and the amount of deficiency payments grant greatly increases.

LORD ST. OSWALD

These negotiations have just begun. Noble Lords with experience of this type of negotiations will realise that it is unwise and quite aside from all practice to discuss negotiations before they are concluded. I think I must stop on that point.

LORD WALSTON

My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the timetable in this is, in fact, entirely the wrong way round and that it would have been easier for his own Department and better for the country if the negotiations had first gone very much farther with our own farming interests; secondly, been held with Commonwealth interests, and, finally, with EFTA, rather than the other way round?

LORD ST. OSWALD

That is a matter of opinion, my Lords, but we have already said that all interests will be borne in mind during the course of these negotiations and subsequent negotiations with other interested parties.

EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, with regard to the question which was put by the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, may I ask this? Is it not a fact that the high cost to the taxpayer at the present time is due to two things? First, there are no adequate controls in operation with regard to these prices because the Government took them off twelve years ago. Second, no proper steps have been taken to restrict imports from these countries and, therefore, the reduction in price that comes from allowing them to flow in without restriction at all is not reaching the consumers.

LORD ST. OSWALD

My Lords, in the first place that is a matter for debate; secondly, it is a question which may come up as part of the negotiations, and therefore I cannot feel free to discuss it at this moment. I must therefore ask the House to permit me to quote the lines from John Donne which say: And whilst our souls negotiate there, We like sepulchral statues lay, All day, the same our postures were, And we said nothing all the day. I feel that that, in all probability, is the proper posture for a Parliamentary Secretary at this particular moment.

EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, it brings no comfort to the British farmer or consumer.

THE EARL OF SANDWICH

My Lords, does not the noble Lord recall that the same John Donne said: …never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee."?