§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government—
- (a) Whether the use of British taxpayers' money on military action for political compulsion is contemplated in any other sphere supplementary to the Congo;
- (b) Whether it is to be understood that the hazard to civilian life in the Congo arising from military action of mercenaries foreign to the soil has attracted vehement disapproval in the United Nations by Her Majesty's Government's representative;
- (c) By what instrument after completed conquest is it contemplated the dissenting area in the Congo is to be governed.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF DUNDEE)My Lords, your Lordships will recall that my noble friend the Foreign Secretary explained our views on the Katanga situation to this House on January 23. On that occasion the Foreign Secretary pointed out that, while it was difficult to judge whether the United Nations had exceeded the relevant Security Council Resolutions, it was more constructive for us to help bring about an implementation of the U Thant Plan for National Reconciliation, which could lead to an agreed settlement in the Congo. Her Majesty's Government have, of course, made clear on numerous occasions their view that force should not be used by the United Nations to impose a political solution. The answer to the first part of my noble friend's Question is therefore "No".
As for the second part of the Question, Her Majesty's Government have supported United Nations action designed to secure 313 the removal of mercenaries from the Congo, and it would appear from Press reports that the majority have now left.
In reply to the last part of the noble Lord's Question, U Thant's Plan, which has been accepted by both Mr. Tshombe and Mr. Adoula, provides for the association of Katanga with the rest of the Congo, under a Federal Constitution. Katanga, like any other Province, has its own elected provincial authorities to administer the territory within the Federal Constitution.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that reply, and particularly for its fullness. It would seem, by inference, that we must accept subservience to the United States, since she, by her subvention, is in fact paying for the operations an Central Africa. Is it to be understood from that that in a vast area, with people of many languages, guided largely by tribal customs such as we find in the Congo, the pursuit of aims by force rather than by civil action is more likely to bring results?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, we, and I think the United States and the United Nations, are all aware of the social character of the Congo. Although we sometimes differ as to the correct methods to be applied, I think we are all agreed in working for a peaceful and united Congo under a Federal Constitution.
§ THE EARL OF SWINTONMy Lords, may I just ask whether it will not be both satisfactory for the British taxpayer and more likely to introduce sane and reasonable policies in the United Nations and outside it if Her Majesty's Government make it plain that, while still continuing to support the United Nations, we will be perfectly firm in refusing to pay into the budget of the United Nations anything more than what I may call our statutory contribution?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, that, of course, is a question which I cannot answer at this moment. I think my noble friend Lord Home said to your Lordships on January 23 that we could not expect to go on for ever paying our subscription to this operation when so many other people refused to pay theirs.
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, am I not right in saying that there has been a recommendation from the International 314 Court laying it down that all expenses involved in operations by the United Nations should be paid by all members of the United Nations; and is that not the proper way to deal with the matter rather than by asking this Government to withdraw their contribution?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, we were glad to note the decision of the International Court on this point, which we had been awaiting for a long time. It remains to be seen, of course, whether, and to what extent, other members of the United Nations will obey the decision of the International Court.
§ BARONESS HORSBRUGHMy Lords, has the noble Earl any information about any State which is about to obey, or is arranging to obey, what the International Court has laid down?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEYes, some countries pay their subscriptions with regularity, but others do not.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, has not the Assembly itself accepted the opinion of the International Court? If so, are they proposing to proceed with the matter and bring some pressure upon the States that have failed to pay up till now? Secondly, may I ask the noble Earl whether or not the problem is that there is no permanent organisation in the United Nations to deal with the sort of situation that we have in the Congo, as I hope will come out in a debate which is fixed in this House for February 20.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, on the first question, I do not think the occasion has yet arisen for any action to be taken by the Assembly, and I cannot say what action they would be likely to take. As to the noble Lord's second question, I think he asked whether there was any organisation in the United Nations capable of dealing with the Congo. Was that the question?
§ LORD OGMOREMy question was: is not the difficulty in cases of this kind due to the fact that there is no permanent force or organisation in the United Nations to handle a situation like this? I hope that this will come out in the debate here on February 20.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEThat is a view which has been shared for a long time, I know, by many of your Lordships—the question of an international force.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, has not the noble Earl just propounded a most curious argument, namely, that if others do wrong, we should do likewise?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I would point out to your Lordships that this is, so far, a hypothetical question, because the point has not come at which we have to make any decision of this kind; nor has the point yet come at which it would be necessary for the Assembly to take any action in accordance with the decision of the International Court.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGHMy Lords, is not the position now that Mr. Tshombe has withdrawn from the policies that he has followed before and is doing his best to come back to a policy for unity in the Congo; and would it not be just as well, therefore, to let that mature, and then to let the Foreign Secretary deal with the matter if it arises?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, subject to the observation that we, of course, are not responsible for the Congo, I think the noble Viscount's observations are wise ones.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, arising out of the noble Earl's reply to the supplementary of the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, with regard to troops in the Congo, read in conjunction with the statement in the Press this morning that it is understood that the total number of troops which the United Nations is using in its operations in the Congo are going to be substantially reduced, can it be understood that Her Majesty's Government will press that the first release will be the Indian troops, so that they may mitigate the taxpayer's expense in giving aid to India in their difficult situation?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEENo, my Lords, I certainly could not accept any kind of discrimination like that. In general, we hope, as my noble friend told your Lordships the other day, that it will soon be possible to convert the United Nations military effort into one of financial and technical assistance for the Congo.
§ LORD COLYTONMy Lords, arising out of my noble friend's original reply, may I ask him whether he will tell the 316 House what progress has in fact been made in regard to U Thant's Reconciliation Plan? In connection with that, can he tell the House whether the request for the withdrawal of the British Consul in Elisabethville has now been rescinded?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEI am not quite sure what fields of activity the noble Lord is thinking of. If he means the Federal Constitution, the details have to be considered and worked out by the Federal Government and the Provincial Governments together, and I am not able to say what progress on the details of the Constitution has so far been made. But it is some measure of progress that, partly owing to the very strenuous efforts of the British Consul in Katanga, the situation which developed a few weeks ago has not led to a war, and that Mr. Tshombe, as the Leader of the Opposition said, has now accepted the U Thant plan. That in itself, I think, could be described as a measure of progress.
§ LORD COLYTONHas the request for the Consul's withdrawal now been rescinded?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, we are in touch with the Central Government in Leopoldville about that. My own last information was that it had not yet been pressed.