THE BERLINER ENSEMBLE (Hansard, 29 January 1963)

§ LORD KENNET
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF DUNDEE)
My Lords, the Ensemble has not in fact applied for the necessary travel documents for such a visit. But it is the general policy of NATO at present not to grant travel facilities to East German applicants in this category. This policy is to draw attention to the inhuman nature of the Berlin Wall which the East German authorities erected in August, 1961. We and our Allies decided that we could not simply acquiesce in the building of the Wall without expressing our revulsion in some practical form. The building of the Wall was a direct challenge to the Allied position in Berlin. It violated international agreements and divided many thousands of Berlin families by preventing freedom of movement between East and West Berlin. We know the Berliner Ensemble is a great company, and we regret that the theatre-going public here should not have a chance to see its performance. But we have upheld the joint Allied decision that a Government which continues the brutal inhumanity of firing on all men, women and children who try to cross this Wall in a city for which we have a definite responsibility is not one with whom we can allow the free exchange of civilised amenities.

§ LORD KENNET
My Lords, do the Government really think it a suitable answer to the inhumanity of the Wall that we ourselves should erect little counter-walls against theatre companies from the 245 other side? Could we not leave that sort of nonsense to the Communists themselves?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, I think that our restrictions on this category of applicants for visas does have some effect in East Berlin, and if we were to withdraw these restrictions it would most assuredly be represented by the East German propaganda machine as British acquiescence in the cruelties of their policy in Berlin.

§ LORD OGMORE
My Lords, are the Government not aware that this company is one of the most famous companies in the world, and that they are people who are suffering from the Wall? Is it not an extraordinary action on the Government's part to prohibit us from extending to this remarkable company our friendship and bringing them through the Wall, on one occasion at all events, to our great advantage?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, as the noble Lord knows, visitors from East Germany here are very severely restricted by the East German Government. That Government allows its own nationals to apply for visas only if it considers that it will thereby acquire some propaganda advantage, and I do not think there is any chance of our reconsidering our policy in this matter until the East German Government reconsider its own.

LORD REA
My Lords, are we supporting that Government in its very rigid attitude to its own nationals?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, we are supporting our two Allies, the French and the Americans, with whom we have jointly arrived at this decision.

§ LORD TAYLOR
My Lords, the noble Earl twice referred to the category of applicants into which the Ensemble falls. What is this category of applicants?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
The category of applicants which is referred to in the Question. We do allow visas to certain applicants from East Germany.

§ LORD OGMORE
My Lords, are we not responsible as part of the Kommandatura of Berlin, for the interests of all inhabitants of Berlin? Is it not our 246 case that the Wall should never have been erected, for one reason because we are jointly responsible for what happens in East Berlin? If this is the case, why cannot we permit this company, which is already handicapped by the Wall to come in if the East Berlin authorities will allow them to do so?

§ LORD CONESFORD
My Lords, is not the point this, that, if Her Majesty's Government were to change their policy, a tyrannical Government would be allowed to pick and choose for its own purposes which of its subjects could and which could not leave their country, and is that not an exercise of tyranny which the Allies are very properly determined to fight?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, my noble friend is perfectly right. The East German Government does pick and choose, and will not allow its nationals to travel abroad unless it believes that a propaganda advantage will thereby be acquired. The reason why the Allies, ourselves, the French and the Americans, have agreed on this policy is that we take the view that we cannot allow these cultural exchanges to go on with a Government as long as it pursues this frightful policy of opening machine gun fire on people whenever they approach the Berlin Wall.

§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL
My Lords, if the Wall is the reason for this policy, how can the noble Earl reconcile the fact that Mr. Khrushchev fully approves the Wall and everything that is done, but nevertheless we welcome one company after another who come from the U.S.S.R.?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, the Russian Government may approve this Wall, and we have certainly expressed our views very strongly to the Russian Government, but it is not the executive Government which is applying this policy. I would remind your Lordships that in Berlin it is we and the French and the Americans who are jointly responsible for the administration of affairs in the city. It is not a question of merely expressing our revulsion of some atrocity taking place in a foreign country; we are concerned here with a city for which we have the right and duty and responsibility of administration.

§ LORD TAYLOR
My Lords, the noble Earl referred me back to the original Question when I asked about the category to which this applies. There is no category mentioned in the original Question; there is a single group of cultural people. Does this policy apply, for example, also to delegations of doctors form East Germany, who, I think, have been allowed in to a recent Conference?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, it does not apply to certain trade visitors. There is no question of economic sanctions, which in our view would not be particularly effective; not nearly so effective as these personal and cultural restrictions in regard to which we believe the East German Government does feel and does understand. On the question of doctors, I should be grateful if the noble Lord would put down a Question if he wants to know the answer about any particular doctor or group of doctors who may have applied for a visa.

§ LORD TAYLOR
My Lords, the noble Earl has not quite said what the category is to which admission is refused.

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
The category of musical performers.

§ LORD OGMORE
My Lords, the noble Earl has raised a most important point. He has said that Mr. Khrushchev and the Russians have no responsibility for this Wall—

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
No.

§ LORD OGMORE
That is what I gathered the noble Earl to say. He said that it was the responsibility—

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, if I may interrupt the noble Lord, I did not say that we had no responsibility. I said that we have responsibility for Berlin.

§ LORD OGMORE
My Lords, surely in answer to a question by the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, it was implied that the Russians had no responsibility, but that it was the responsibility of the East German Government. Surely Berlin is under a Kommandatura. Is it not a fact that the whole of Berlin is under a Kommandatura of which we and the Russians are part, and in which the Russians cannot absolve themselves for responsibility for the Wall?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, if the noble Lord would like to argue that we ought to restrict all Russian artistes, perhaps he would put down a Question to that effect.

§ LORD STONHAM
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that trade unionists are allowed in from East Germany for some exhibitions? Can he say whether musical performers or actors would be excluded if they were trade unionists?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, that sounds a hypothetical question. I have already told your Lordships that the Berliner Ensemble have not applied for a visa, and in order to satisfy the desire for information of the noble Lord who put down the Question, I have made it plain that if they did apply for a visa it would not be granted.

§ LORD CONESFORD
My Lords, are we to understand from some of the questions put by the Opposition that they are unaware of the fact that we recognise the Russian Government de jure and de facto, and that we do not recognise the East German Government?

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH
My Lords, may I suggest that perhaps Ministers would examine carefully the Record of the questions and answers to-day and see how far we can say that we are being strictly impartial in these matters between various countries. I listened, listened and listened, but I could find no great difference in the positions which were referred to. I beg the Government to have another look at this question, and to take into careful consideration the questions and the answers given to-day.

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, we always carefully examine the questions which are asked in your Lordships' House, and I hope that the answers are examined with equal care; and of course we are always ready to take practical account of any serious arguments which are put forward.

§ LORD KENNET
My Lords, lastly, if the visas were refused by the Government in the belief that the Berliner Ensemble were musical performers, could they perhaps be granted in the correct view that they are actors?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, there is no reason why an actor should 249 not have a good ear for music, nor why he should not have musical talent. But what I want the noble Lord to understand is that we do not intend to grant a visa. They have not applied for any visas; but if they were to apply for visas at present the application would not be granted, for the reasons which I have given.

LORD FARINGDON
My Lords, would Her Majesty's Government not agree that encouragement of cultural relations is one of the better, and possibly more successful, methods of re-establishing relations?

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, it is our policy in general to encourage more cultural interchanges with all countries behind the Iron Curtain, and we are making great progress in that. The noble Lord does not seem to have understood the peculiar character of the situation in Berlin—that here is a city for whose administration we are one of the responsible Governments; and that in view of the abominable cruelties which are being continuously practised by the East German Government, as I have stated, we do not feel we can permit these civilised amenities to be exchanged.

§ BARONESS HORSBRUGH
My Lords, does the noble Lord think that the culture at present exposed in East Berlin is a type of culture we want more of in this country? Those who do not like it had better try to improve the cultural outlook of East Berlin.

LORD REA
My Lords, might I ask the noble Earl, if he looks into this matter further, to bear in mind that noble Lords on this side of the House condemn and dislike the Wall quite as much as anybody on the Government Benches?