§ 2.48 p.m.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question of which I have given Private Notice:
§ [To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can now make a statement with regard to the arrangements which they consider should be made 886 with regard to the leadership of this House when the Leader of the House is away.]
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, may I say, first of all, that I was sorry that my tour in the North-East last week took me away from your Lordships' House during several important debates. Nevertheless, while I was, and, may I say, am, exceedingly grateful for the generous things—and they were generous—said by the noble Earl about myself, I was not entirely happy that he had raised that subject in my absence. My tour of the North-East had been extensively advertised in advance and I should have thought it was possible to raise the question either before my departure or after my return. But I am exceedingly grateful to him for giving me the opportunity of dealing with the matter to-day.
I think a Minister must always regard his responsibility to Parliament as his first and prime preoccupation. But my view is, and always has been, that the service of this House is best served by a Minister who has important outside responsibilities. Another place is, as we all know, often and rightly jealous of particular Portfolios. But, for what it is worth, I think that a Minister does give life and vigour to the debates here if he can give to the House at first, and not second, hand his experiences of a subject under discussion. For instance, I feel that even yesterday I was able, because of my tour, to do better than I otherwise would have done; and I understand that next week, when the House is to debate unemployment, I shall have an opportunity of delivering early in the debate a speech which I should have enjoyed making in any case but which I think will be helped enormously by the feeling and material that I was able to gather in the North-East.
My Lords, my predecessor, the present Foreign Secretary, was both Lord President of the Council and Commonwealth Secretary at the time of his Leadership of this House. He left Britain, I think, sometimes for weeks on end, and so far as I remember, his absence was not commented on adversely. Moreover, there have been long periods of time, for instance during the Government of which the noble Earl himself was an ornament—and so were several Members whom I see ranged on the Front Bench 887 opposite—when only three Cabinet Ministrs were available in the House; and, even more so, there was a period of more than three years when only two Cabinet Ministers were available in the House, the late Lord Jowitt, who was Lord Chancellor, and the late Lord Addison, who was Leader of the House and Lord Privy Seal. I am sure your Lordships will share my own wish that a fair proportion of Portfolios in a Government will be held by Members of your Lordships' House, and I feel certain there will be times in the future when such will be the case. Last week was a week in which both the Foreign Secretary and the Lord Chancellor were available. Nor did I feel any qualms that the leadership should be left to my noble friend Lord Dundee, who, I think I may say, is deeply loved by his colleagues and greatly respected by all Members of the House.
It only remains for me to say that, during a period of time, again there were only two members of the Cabinet in this House during the time of the Labour Government. I say that not by way of a reproach but simply by way of record. The noble Viscount, Lord Hall, was the Deputy Leader, as my noble friend is the Deputy Leader now, but he was not at that time a Cabinet Minister; he was First Lord of the Admiralty, and I think he gave very general satisfaction, so far as any member of that Government gave satisfaction to those on my side of the House; and indeed he is very deeply loved, I think, in all quarters. I do not think this is really a very good point, therefore, for the reasons I have given. The noble Earl can be quite sure that I will try to see that the service of the House is properly maintained and I shall be helped in it both by my two colleagues in the Government as and when they are available and by my noble friend Lord Dundee, who is the Deputy Leader, and my noble friend the First Lord of the Admiralty who is the Assistant Deputy Leader. I think that makes a much stronger team, if I may say so, than the House has had over a great part of its recent history.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I am obliged for the Answer given by the noble Viscount the Leader of the House. I appreciated the detail of it and I appreciated the reasonableness of it. On the 888 other hand, if I may speak of the time when the Labour Government were in office, I would point out that my noble friend Lord Hall was during part of the time First Lord of the Admiralty, but during part of the time he was Secretary of State for the Colonies. I am not quite sure whether he was in this House then. In any case we were in a pretty difficult time. Perhaps we ought not to have broken what had been a long tradition of the House; that is, that your Lordships' House is worthy of getting answers which can be backed on the spot by a member of the Cabinet. I pass no criticism of the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, who is, as I said the other day, a popular and acceptable figure in this House to all sides, but we appear now to be rather thin on the ground at what is also a very difficult time and I feel we ought to be able to have the necessary reply from a member of the Government when the noble Viscount the Leader is away on duty. I am not complaining about his being away; I complain simply about the risk of his being away more than most Leaders because of the variety of posts he has to work so hard to fulfil.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, again I am very grateful to the noble Earl for the generous way in which he has handled me personally, and also for the reasonable tone of his supplementary question. I have had looked out (although I have mislaid it) the complete list of arrangements under the Labour Government. I am clear in my own mind that the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, was not a member of the Cabinet for a period of about three years as Deputy Leader. I must point out to the noble Earl that Questions can be asked of the Government and answered by members of the Cabinet, and are habitually answered by members of the Cabinet, on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, when they are not acting at the time as Leader, or Acting Leader, of the House.
Last week, as I have said, was a week in which both the Foreign Secretary and the Lord Chancellor were available for any questions which they were particularly suited, as members of the Cabinet, to answer; and I would feel on the whole that last week was not a particularly strong week if one were trying to found a case that this House was not being fully served from the Front Bench. I am, 889 of course, most concerned about this matter, as much as the noble Earl, and I shall try to see to it that the House does not suffer in any way but gains rather by any responsibilities that I may have. I am reminded that the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, was in the Cabinet as Secretary of State for the Colonies when he was in the House of Commons, and that when he became First Lord of the Admiralty he ceased to be in the Cabinet; that is when he came here.
LORD REAMy Lords, perhaps I may comment that as there are thirteen Ministers in the House to-day, I hope the noble Viscount the Leader of the House will not overdo it in either direction.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMI hope that thirteen will prove a very lucky number.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I should not like to think that the noble Viscount the Leader of the House felt I was guilty of discourtesy in raising the matter last week. I had discussed it with the Foreign Secretary when the matter was first considered by my colleagues and myself, and I also mentioned it to him informally when we met after he had come back on that occasion. No discourtesy was intended, but we thought we ought by then to have had some reply. The other thing I would say is this: as regards the work of the House of Lords now, which is often so very detailed, we have felt rather, since we lost Lord Mills, that we miss the additional Cabinet Minister who was so often ready to answer for his colleagues.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I was not imputing any discourtesy to the noble Earl; although it is true to say I knew this matter was in his mind, I did not know he was going to mention it during my tour. I should be the last to suggest that not one but all my colleagues ought not to be promoted to the Cabinet.