§ 2.37 p.m.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are in a position to make an interim statement on the negotiations being conducted with the National Farmers' Union on the pro- 534 vision of information showing the difference between prices obtained by farmers and prices charged in the shops.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (LORD ST. OSWALD)My Lords, I regret that I am not able to make any further statement at this time. There are in fact no negotiations, only discussions, and those discussions are continuing.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, while hoping that that reply is as unsatisfactory to the noble Lord who has given it as it is to the House and myself, may I ask whether he could help us a little further? Is he aware that on November 27 he told us that there had been exchanges of view between the National Farmers' Union and the Ministry as to whether additional sources of information could be developed. He went on to say [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 244 (No. 13), Col. 1097]:
My right honourable friend is quite ready to consider the practicalities of this".Would the noble Lord not consider that at least that seemed hopeful? In addition, does he remember that he told the House that the President of the National Farmers' Union raised this matter with his right honourable friend in May of last year? Does he not think it is time we were able to get more information?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, I referred to discussions, and these discussions are a quite ordinary exchange of views between the statisticians of the National Farmers' Union and my Department which may or may not lead to a definite result. The National Farmers' Union have indicated that they would like made available to them rather more detailed information on the retail prices of meat than is already published, and I am referring to the information published by the Ministry of Labour, which is, of course, available to the noble Lady and everyone else. The House, I hope, will not underestimate the difficulty of comparing prices of fat stock and retail prices of particular joints and cuts of meat. I cannot at present say whether it will prove possible to resolve the difficulties provided by these complicated matters.
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, does not the noble Lord recollect that last week, and, I believe, the week before, in answer to two Questions by my noble friend, he gave information which made it clear that the price of wheat to the British farmer has dropped and the price of imported wheat has slightly risen. The weighted average in correct proportion to those two prices means that wheat has remained the same; yet the price of bread has risen by 4 per cent. Similarly, in the case of milk the price of milk to the farmer has dropped, the retail price to the consumer has risen. Would not the noble Lord feel this offers at least some basis for the sort of comparison my noble friend referred to, and will be not pursue with the National Farmers' Union some negotiations or discussions of a sort likely to lead to a result which would enable housewives to understand what is taking place?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, I hope the noble Lord knows that I dislike being evasive on any occasion, but the noble Lady's Question refers precisely to certain discussions with the N.F.U., and those discussions relate to questions on meat which the N.F.U. have precisely asked to have answered. The discussions are restricted, at their request, to meat. I should like to know what sort of statistics the noble Lord would like to have, and I should like him to know what I think he is in fact asking for. In order to satisfy the noble Baroness, and to satisfy myself that I was not being unduly evasive, this morning I went to a butcher with whom I am in contact in London and asked for the retail prices for various cuts of meat. Mrs. Beaton describes 18 different cuts. I gather that there are about three times that number recognised by this particular butcher, and I will, if the House will forgive me (because the noble Lord has requested a full reply), recite to him the prices I was given: fillet of steak, eye fillet, no fat, 12s. per lb.; rump steak, 9s. per lb.; top rump steak, according to cut, 5s. 6d. or 6s., per lb; H-bone steak, 5s. 6d. per lb.; chuck steak, 4s. 6d. and 4s. 8d. per lb.; beef for mince, 3s. 4d. per lb.; flank, with bone, 1s. 8d. and 1s. 10d.; flank, lean, no bone or fat, 3s. 6d.; leg of beef 3s. 8d. and 3s. 10d.
536 I was not content with pursuing it as far as that. I then telephoned the butcher with whom I deal in Yorkshire. Some of these terms he did not recognise at all, and where he was able to give me prices for the similar cuts of meat they varied in every case from the prices in London; in fact, there was in one case a difference of 33⅓ per cent. Still uncontent with what I had discovered, I telephoned a large store in London less than a mile away from the Chelsea butcher shop to which I first referred, and there I was informed that all the prices again varied from the Chelsea butcher's shop. On top of that these prices relate only to one form of meat, beef, and I was informed in all three shops that the prices vary from day to day. It is possible that if the army of inspectors necessary for the great task which the noble Lord requires could be enlisted it might do something for the present temporary unemployment problems, but whether such an army of inspectors would be usefully employed I rather doubt.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, after that wonderfully lengthy speech at Question Time, I suggest that the noble Lord puts down a Motion to support the conduct that he has pursued.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)My Lords, I am sure the House approves of the diligence of my noble friend. But I would remind the House that the Question asks only for an interim statement.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHI should still like information about sirloin and top-half roll.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, being uncontent but considerably impressed with the Answer, the result of the noble Lord's industry, I would ask: is he aware that I do not wish to be submerged in meat? I am after something much more simple. Is he aware that what I want to know is the price that farmers receive for various commodities, not only meat, and the price charged in the shop, so that we can find out whether or not the difference between those two is a fair 537 one? Will he ask his right honourable friend whether he will look into that matter?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, I must remind the noble Baroness again that her Question referred to certain discussions going on now, and those discussions relate only to meat.
§ LORD WILLIAMS OF BARNBURGHMy Lords, if the noble Lord should find himself unemployed for a few hours, will he also tell your Lordships what proportion of the animal the various cuts he has referred to represent?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, that is yet another question. I can assure the noble Lord that if he and other noble Lords are as diligent in putting questions to me I am most unlikely to have three hours at a time (in which to study this question.
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, is it not the case that the degree of difference, between the bankruptcy court and a profitable butcher lies practically in the knife of his cutter and that therefore a considerable amount must be left for human error to-day as it used to be?