REORGANISATION OF BRITISH TRANSPORT COMMISSION (Hansard, 15 March 1961)

§ THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (LORD MILLS)
My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to repeat to you a statement which is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport. This is the statement:
"With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I should like to make a statement about the initial steps the Government propose to take in the reorganisation of the British Transport Commission under the proposals recently approved by the House.
"In accordance with the new arrangements Sir Brian Robertson will, with my agreement, retire from the chairmanship of the Commission with effect from 1st June, 1961.
"The House will, I know, share to the full the Government's warm gratitude to Sir Brian for his outstanding services as Chairman of the Commission since 1953 and for the devotion with which he has carried out his heavy responsibilities. Having regard to the terms of the appointment, the Government intend to take powers in the forthcoming legislation to enable the Commission to pay him, in addition to his superannuation award, a sum of £12,500.
"I have decided to appoint Dr. Richard Beeching as Chairman-designate of the new Railways Board. Dr. Beeching is a Director of Imperial Chemical Industries Limited, and was a member of the Special Advisory Group on the Reorganisation of the Commission. To enable him to take 880 part immediately in the preparatory work which has to be done, I have to-day appointed him to be a part-time member of the British Transport Commission. On Sir Brian Robertson's retirement, Dr. Beeching will become a full-time member of the Commission and will also assume the chairmanship until, when the reorganisation comes into effect, he can become the first Chairman of the British Railways Board.
"I take this opportunity of thanking Imperial Chemical Industries for releasing Dr. Beeching for five years.
"I told the House on 30th January last that, in view of the special nature of this task of reorganisation, it might be necessary at the start to bring in a few new people at the top, and that the Government would need to pay regard to the special needs in their search for the best available talent and in considering suitable terms. The Government consider it fortunate that Dr. Beeching is prepared to interrupt his career with the Imperial Chemical Industries for a period of five years to take up this especially challenging task. It would not be right to expect him, in addition, to accept a substantial financial sacrifice, and I have decided, with the agreement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that Dr. Beeching shall be paid, from 1st June next, his present remuneration with Imperial Chemical Industries, which is £24,000 a year."

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH
My Lords, may I first thank the noble Lord for giving us a copy of the statement made in another place. I think the first comment one might be allowed to make (one must be brief to-day) is that we share the view of the Minister with regard to the services of Sir Brian Robertson. We do not know how he has managed to do as much as he has done, with all the political interference he has had for the last seven-and-half years. Therefore we do not think that the Government is being especially over-generous to him in the allocation they are making to him, although it is quite generous for the period involved.
However, I must say that it raises the other question, and that is what sort of 881 compensation, through this change in Government policy, is going to be given to other services of the Transport Commission. There is not the slightest indication yet, so far as I can tell, as to what will be done in that line. There are various degrees, periods and characters of services which have been rendered, and the Government may well be assured that, in view of the step taken here and the subsequent one which I will mention, there will be many anxious inquiries as to their intentions with regard to compensation for a change in a given situation which is entirely due to Government policy.
Now I would refer to the new appointment. I think, in the circumstances, it is an extraordinary position in which Parliament is placed. As to the academic qualifications and a certain amount of commercial experience of Dr. Beeching, there can be no question at all. But Parliament has to face a situation in which a salary is to be paid on a commercial basis, according to the standards of Imperial Chemical Industries, Limited, for a period of five years, in order to carry out a reorganisation which is apparently to be conducted on lines unknown to Parliament. It is to be conducted under the control of a member of the Group who made the recommendations as to what should be done, and the Government have not thought fit to submit those recommendations or that Report to Parliament. The cost will be £24,000 a year, with no indication at present whether that is completely inclusive of all superannuation charges or compensation involved. My comment at this stage is that it may be said politically that the people at large have "never had it so good"; but according to the valuations which are placed by the Government, or even by the directors of Imperial Chemical Industries, Limited, on an individual's services, I think a lot of people will think that it is mainly a class which has "never had it so good".

§ LORD MILLS
My Lords, in reply to the points raised by the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition, I may say that the Government reached agreement with Sir Brian Robertson, who is perfectly satisfied that the Government had no desire except to acknowledge his ser- 882 vices and deal generously and properly with him. I would say that the Government intend to take powers in forthcoming legislation which will enable them to deal with any other member who may have to be dealt with. These powers have not yet been decided. Therefore I cannot inform your Lordships any further than that the Government will deal properly with anyone who falls to be dealt with. The noble Viscount said that he did not know what the proposals were. It is true, as was said at the outset, that the Government did not propose to publish a Report which was available to them and was one of the matters taken into account in deciding what the reorganisation should be. But the Government did publish a White Paper giving their proposals and that was available to your Lordships' House.
As regards the question of the remuneration proposed to be paid to Dr. Beeching, I would point out that it is merely continuing for him the remuneration he now enjoys outside, as I explained to your Lordships; and it seems right, as my right honourable friend said in his statement, that Dr. Beeching should not be asked to suffer in this respect. He is being loaned from the I.C.I., and the Government are merely continuing his remuneration.

§ LORD TAYLOR
My Lords, if that position applies, surely it applies whenever an industrialist joins the Government. Yet the Government pay their Ministers substantially less than, perhaps half of, what is offered to Dr. Beeching.

§ LORD MILLS
My Lords, I am delighted to hear what the noble Lord has said.

§ LORD STONHAM
My Lords, in view of the fact that the White Paper made a feature of encouraging railwaymen to believe that they might achieve the highest posts, can the noble Lord say what principles have governed the Government's decision in this matter in choosing, instead of an experienced railwayman like Mr. Grand, a gentleman, however distinguished and experienced in business, who apparently has had no experience whatever in railways and transport?

§ LORD MERRIVALE
My Lords, before the noble Lord replies, may I say that I agree with what the noble Lord, 883 Lord Stonham, said? I welcome very much the fact that Sir Brian Robertson will be made an ex gratia payment for his valuable services from 1953. There is one question I should like to ask the noble Lord, though I do not know whether he can reply now. How is it that the statement which we have just heard was announced this morning in the Daily Express? Secondly, I do not doubt in any way the technical capabilities of Dr. Beeching, as he is a Technical Director of I.C.I., but I would ask the noble Lord what administrative or operational experience he can have of railways. The noble Lord said that he would be employed for a period of five years. This seems to be the period during which the major part of the reorganisation and modernisation will take place. I wonder whether the noble Lord will not agree that possibly somebody with great experience of the operational side of railways should have been considered.

LORD REA
My Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount the Leader of the House whether he considers that this debate is in order?

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
My Lords, I was just asking myself that question. I am always reluctant to interfere with attempts by noble Lords who ask questions after an important statement has been made. If I may make a suggestion, I think that instead of putting a series of questions, one after the other, your Lordships should try to put them one at a time, because I have noticed more than once that when there is a long series of questions, with each sneaker saying, "Before the noble Lord answers" the last, and then asking something totally different, we begin to get out of order. I think that if my noble friend answers the two questions just put to him, it might be for the convenience of the House if noble Lords refrained from further comment until there was an opportunity of debate on Question.

§ LORD MILLS
My Lords, in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, I would say that it is indeed desirable that every encouragement should be given to those in the railway service. With your Lordships' permission, I would read what my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport had to say in another place on 884 January 30 last. He said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 633 (No. 42), col. 618]: A new structure and reorganisation can do a great deal to make railway problems manageable, but of equal importance is the quality of the men who will provide leadership, and the morale of staff and workers. The railways must have the best leadership available. There must be opportunities in all parts of the railways for those with ability to get to the top. At the start it may be necessary to bring in a few new people. The task is challenging, and I believe that the time is crucial. The task is not only running one of the biggest industries in the country, if not the biggest; it is the task of transforming its structure, its outlook and its finances. The Government will have to have regard to these special needs in their search for the best available talent and in considering the terms on which it can be obtained. I think that that answers the second question of the noble Lord. Lord Merrivale. There are many people. and there will be many people, concerned in the management of the railways, and many people with great experience of railways, but what is needed at this time is to have as Chairman of the Railways Board someone who has already studied the problems and who, in the opinion of the Government, is competent to take over that charge.
The noble Lord referred to an announcement in the Daily Express. I wish that I could answer his question. I do not know. But this I can tell him: that my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport will take all steps open to him to try to find out.

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
My Lords, perhaps it would be convenient for the House if my noble friend Lord Newton were now to make his statement, before we resume the debate on Defence.