§ 2.51 p.m.
§ LORD BOOTHBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, having regard to the essential part played by school mathematics in the training of scientists and technologists, and in view of the present shortage of over 3,000 mathematical teachers in British schools and the fact that replacements are not matching retirements, they now propose to take action to avert the incipient disintegration of technological training as we know it in this country.]
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have already taken action to meet the shortage of mathematics teachers in the 1116 schools, which they fully recognise to be a matter of serious concern—though I certainly do not accept the noble Lord's conclusion. The grave shortage of mathematics graduates able and willing to teach has been made known to the university authorities, and consultations are taking place with them about how the problem can best be tackled. My right honourable friend the Minister of Education has also taken measures to improve the supply of non-graduate teachers of this subject.
§ LORD BOOTHBYMy Lords, arising out of that Answer, may I ask the noble Viscount how it is that, although he was given full details of the actions taken by the National Science Foundation of America in regard to this matter—the provision of more adequate and better qualified teachers of science and mathematics—in 1959, Her Majesty's Government have not yet come forward with any concrete proposals for similar or better provisions for our own teacher-training profession? In view of the fact that time is now running out pretty hard on us, and that the shortage of teachers of mathematics in our schools is steadily increasing, will Her Majesty's Government now consider implementing the recommendations of the Southampton Mathematics Conference held in April of this year?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMThose are rather different questions. My noble friend cannot, of course, be unaware that the core of this problem is the provision of graduates; and although Her Majesty's Government have both a responsibility and an influence in this matter, the provision of graduates is within the province of the universities, and can be carried out only on the initiative of the university authorities. The University Grants Committee, as my noble friend is aware, do not provide earmarked grants of money; and I think the most I could say about the provision of graduates, which in my judgment is the heart of the matter, is that consultations are taking place with the university authorities as I have indicated. The provision of school teachers of a non-graduate character is, of course, much more directly within the sphere of influence of my right honourable friend the Minister of Education; and apart from other steps, of course, the 1117 provision of a three-year course as distinct from a two-year course has enabled him to take the opportunity of improving the standard in the teacher-training colleges.
§ LORD BOOTHBYMay I just ask one other question of my noble friend? Will he have a look at the possibility of co-ordinating Government policy a little more than it is co-ordinated at present? I feel there is too much departmentalisation among the Ministry of Education, his own Ministry, the University Grants Committee and the universities. They are all working in little separate compartments, and that is the main reason why we have not got a coherent, general policy for the vital provision of these teachers. May I ask my noble friend to look at the general question and see how much further co-ordination among the various Departments concerned could be achieved?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMOf course, "co-ordination" is a very happy word. I myself have taken a certain interest in this matter—although I am not sure that I ought to recognise it as being within the strict terms of my departmental responsibility—because mathematics have such a direct and important bearing on all forms of science. But I do not think that the House or Parliament would approve of the Minister of Education assuming any degree of responsibility over universities. This subject was fully discussed in a recent debate. However, I certainly will take note of my noble friend's suggestion.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, in view of the serious repercussions in the world of industry and science if this shortage continues, has it been considered whether a special financial premium should be given to those who teach in mathematics and science?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMAs the noble Baroness is aware, remuneration in the teaching profession is within the scope of the Burnham machinery, and I rather question whether the Burnham Committee would approve of having differential rates of pay in any form to teachers of particular disciplines—although, of course, graduate teachers, I think I am right in saying, do receive higher remuneration. I will certainly report the noble Baroness's question to my right 1118 honourable friend, but I think there would be difficulties in what she suggests.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I am sure the Lord President is fully aware of the anxiety of parents at the present time with regard to their own children becoming graduate students. There is great pressure being brought in the universities for women, especially, to give up ideas they have of going into the scientific and technological side of industry, but is it not a fact that many of them are now offered far better careers in the scientific side of industry than you are offering them? And if the Burnham Committee cannot meet that position, surely it ought either to be wound up or new Governmental directions given.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, the anxiety of parents in relation to the present teaching of mathematics is not well-founded. I think the number of those passing the General Certificate of Education at "A" level is probably six times what it was not so very long ago. Teaching at the moment, although inadequate from the point of view of absolute requirement, has not, I think, given rise to anxiety among parents. I think my noble friend's Question was concerned with the future, and rightly concerned with the future, because, whereas between the wars practically the whole output of mathematics graduates went into teaching, certain developments in industry—in particular in the field of computers—have meant that a whole new range of opportunities is now open to mathematics graduates. This, I think, is one of the factors which is causing an acute shortage of teachers.
In reply to the latter part of the noble Viscount's question, I think I ought to say this. The whole quesion of remuneration of teachers is un important one; is and, of course, the Burnham machinery s apt for providing rates of remuneration over the whole spectrum of teaching, and is relevant to the question of a general shortage of teachers in the country. But I doubt whether the Burnham machinery, or remuneration through that source, is apt for meeting deficiencies in particular disciplines or in particular localities. I remember having this question before me when I was Minister for Education myself, and that was the impression I formed.
VISCOUNT ELIBANKMy Lords, would it not be helpful to the objective of the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, and indeed of the Government, if Latin were dropped from the curricula of scholastic establishments and the time spent on that devoted to mathematics and other subjects? Is the noble Viscount not aware that in our youth many of us devoted hours and hours to learning Latin at the expense of subjects which would have been far more useful to us in our later life?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMI think the noble Viscount is drawing too much on his own experience. The curriculum has slightly modified itself since the noble Viscount's youth.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, could we not have an assurance from the Government in some way about this? There is a great shortage of teachers of mathematics and science in the grammar schools today. There are a large number of undergraduates, men and women, who are taking courses which are usually combined—such as mathematics and physics, or mathematics and chemistry. They are offered very promising entries into industry. Must there not be some balance drawn by Her Majesty's Government as to which they shall press at the present time, and what should be done about meeting that situation? That is the kind of policy that the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, is surely looking for, and what we all want. You rare going to have non-graduate teachers of mathematics, and where will you direct them?—to the primary schools, to the modern secondary schools, or to the grammar schools? Many of them would not be up to the level of teaching required for the kind of qualifications that grammar schools want to see developed in their scholars if they are going to take honours degree courses in science and mathematics.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, that is a whole series of questions. So far as the direction of teachers is concerned, that has not been—happily—the practice of the Ministry in this country, and I hope we shall never have to resort to it. The employment of teachers is on a voluntary basis, and is for local education authorities. As regards the provision of mathematics graduates, the 1120 shortage is indeed a serious one. But it is not only a shortage of teachers. I think one has to face the fact that if British industry is to compete effectively with its rivals in the world it must have its own supply of mathematics graduates as well. Indeed, this is one of the reasons why we particularly desire to increase the number of teachers.
What is really wanted is an increase in the total output of graduates. Obviously, questions of remuneration have to be settled, on whatever basis; we have always desired to keep that question, so far as we can, out of Party politics, for reasons which the noble Viscount opposite realises—they are important reasons. But I do not think the teaching profession can have the whole supply of mathematics graduates. That might be a serious thing for the future growth of industry. I think that answers the noble Viscount's question. There may have been points I have overlooked, in which case the noble Viscount will draw my attention to them.
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, may I ask whether part of the difficulty may not be that the incidence of real mathematicians is very low? When I was young and reading mathematics, there were only about one or two per thousand who were real mathematicians and they were the people who went for the honours degrees.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I think this is a real difficulty to which my noble friend has drawn attention. It is not every mind which is capable of acquiring a mathematics qualification. But I am not at all satisfied that we have as yet exhausted the potentialities of mathematical ability. Nor—speaking personally; I do not know how far this would be the view of the Minister on this point—am I satisfied that the methods of teaching mathematics could not be improved in such a way as to attract to mathematical graduacy a number of people who hitherto have been put off it altogether.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, is the noble Viscount aware of the acute anxiety amongst parents, because in many areas, London included, they have the greatest difficulty in getting their eleven-year-old children into secondary schools? Is this not one result of the general acute shortage of teachers, and 1121 can he say whether the shortage of mathematics teachers is more acute?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I should not like to go into the question of the general shortage of teachers under this head, or the problems of the London area. If the noble Lord wants an answer to that, he must put a Question down. But I do think the shortage of mathematics teachers is likely to become, and is already, very much worse than the general shortage of teachers. This applies to all graduate teachers, but to mathematics teachers in particular. The noble Viscount opposite is correct in thinking that, in relation to the natural sciences, mathematics does play exactly the same sort of part that, in the conventional curriculum of the past, Latin used to play in relation to the humanities.