HL Deb 26 July 1961 vol 233 cc1008-16

2.43 p.m.

THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (LORD CARRINGTON)

My Lords, I think I should begin by explaining the effect of the Order which the House is being asked to approve. It is to add the Federal German Republic to the list of countries to which the Visiting Forces (Application of Law) Order, 1954, as amended by a similar Order of 1956, apply. Those Orders, made under Section 8 of the Visiting Forces Act, 1952, contain numerous detailed provisions, the effect of which is to put a visiting force and its members in broadly the same legal position as our own forces, in such matters as the provision of training land, the use of firearms and explosives, and the use of military vehicles. These miscellaneous exemptions and privileges which are enjoyed by our own Forces need to be applied to any organised body of troops which is to function efficiently.

There is one thing which the draft Order does not do. It does not apply the provisions of the Visiting Forces Act itself to German forces; that is done by a separate Order in Council under Section 1 of the Act, designating the Federal German Republic for all the purposes of the Act. That Order does not require Parliamentary approval: as my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has announced, a Designation Order under Section 1 will be submitted to the Privy Council at the same time as this Application Order, if approved by your Lordships. It is the Act and not the Application of Law, which makes provision for a visiting force to exercise discipline arid, in certain circumstances, criminal jurisdiction, over its members in respect of things done when on duty or within the force. Off duty, offences committed by a member of a visiting force are subject to the ordinary process of law, unless they are committed against the person or property of the force or a member of it.

So much for the legal position under the Visiting Forces Act and Application of Law Order. Basically, this is no more than a routine piece of business to extend the powers of a well tried Act to the only N.A.T.O. country not covered by it (except for Iceland, which has no forces). But I know that your Lordships will not wish to pass this Order without careful examination, since the proposal involves having West German troops in uniform in this country. We must recognise that it will disturb a number of people—a minority—who may be resistant to having German forces here for training. There is nothing new about the idea of German troops in uniform coming to this country as individuals. As the Minister of Defence said in another place last week, some 1,200 German officers and men have over the last three years come to this country with other N.A.T.O. visitors on training courses. The Government take the view that this country must give all the help it can to West Germany in playing her full part in the N.A.T.O. Alliance.

The N.A.T.O. Council, which has discussed this matter very fully, has concluded that Germany must look to her N.A.T.O. allies for help in providing logistic and training facilities. Your Lordships will already know from the Minister of Defence's statement in the House of Commons on July 12 that dis cussions are under way about providing facilities in Britain to enable the Germans to disperse some of their oil, petrol and ammunition stocks. There is, however, an even mare urgent requirement: this is for a range an which the Germans can carry out preliminary and elementary tank training, as opposed to the more complicated and advanced manœuvres. There is a serious shortage of training areas in Germany, and at the request of the N.A.T.O. Council the Government have investigated what could be made available in this country.

As a result, it has been agreed that a German tank battalion should use the Army range at Castlemartin in Pembrokeshire in September. The arrangements will be that one tank regiment, of about 40 tanks and 600 men, will spend three weeks in September at Castlemartin carrying out tank firing and simple tactical exercises. They will make use of the existing range of about 5,000 acres. The tanks will probably be brought by sea, and the troops themselves may come by sea or by air—these arrangements are not yet firm. The Minister of Defence has made it clear that, because of the practical problems involved, the visit of the first tank battalion will be in the nature of a trial: and on the result of this trial the two Governments will decide whether the arrangements are to be continued. My Lords, this is a logical step in the development of the N.A.T.O. Alliance, and the Order does no more than to include Germany with the other N.A.T.O. and Commonwealth countries with whom we have reciprocal arrangements of this kind. I beg to move.

Moved, That the Draft Visiting Forces (Application of Law) Order, 1961, be approved.—(Lord Carrington.)

LORD OGMORE

My Lords, I do not think that we ought to let this Order go through on the nod, as it were, because it is an important one. It is a matter upon which people have very strong feelings. The House of Commons discussed it for a number of hours and eventually had a Division upon it—not a well supported Division, but still a Division. As this is the first time, I suppose, in our lifetime, in which German troops have come for training in this country, as I say I think we ought to give it some consideration.

The basis of it is the North Atlantic Treaty, which was signed, as your Lordships will remember, on April 4, 1949. Article 3 of the Treaty says this: In order more effectively to achieve the objects of this Treaty, the Parties separately and jointly, by means of continuous and effective self-help and mutual aid, will maintain and develop their individual and collective capacity to resist armed attack. One point which the Minister did not bring out which is important—at any rate, he may have brought it out but I did not notice it—is that the reason why the Germans want this training facility is that it happens to be a range which fires out to sea; and it is rather unique in that way. Usually, of course, ranges fire to the landward and thus are a danger to the community.

Now we have agreed to the participation of Germany in N.A.T.O. This decision was taken in 1950, and I think that, having taken that decision, we must take the consequences too; and one of the consequences is the Order we have before us to-day. There are two points of view, and I think they can be quite sincerely and firmly held. I must say that I have taken my personal decision after much thought—indeed, much anguished thought. You can either say that we should have nothing to do with the Germans, and should not have them here, or you can say that they are members of N.A.T.O. and that if they want these facilities, if they are not available in their own country we must let them have them here. I think what it is not permissible to say is what the official Labour Party has said: that is, "We will sit precariously on the fence and will neither agree nor disagree to this Order." That seems to me deplorable; I see no merit in it whatsoever. Under the Treaty we cannot make differences between one country and another.

I am, in fact, in favour of an even greater pooling of our resources in N.A.T.O. I believe in giving up the independent deterrent, in not having it so far as we are concerned. I have also advocated, both in your Lordships' House and in other places, a far greater pooling of weapons and all that sort of thing. We are far behind in N.A.T.O. in the standardisation of weapons and equipment.

I feel that if we are going to collaborate in this matter then Wales should do so, and I am quite certain about this course. I might point out that we have always been most loyal to the United Kingdom alliance in the two world wars, even from the time of Crécy and Agincourt when our forces formed such an important part of the English King's array. We should like to be loyal to modern alliance, that is, to the N.A.T.O. Alliance. I feel that there is a political reason as well as a military one. We have suffered over the last century from German insecurity and the feeling they have of isolation.

During the war I was talking to an old Frenchman in France who had himself, and his village, been invaded three times in his lifetime. The natural and resultant attitude has led to this feeling of isolation on the part of Germany. I think it is most important to get Germany into the Western family of nations and not in any way to isolate them. The Germans are sensitive people; they are almost neurotic people, and I feel that if we were to exclude them from the facilities we have in this country it would be most unfortunate. However, we are entitled to a quid pro quo with regard to Krupp's, because it is quite a difficult thing for the public here to agree to. It is time Dr. Adenauer realised that we are going a long way to meet him in his requirements, and it is about time he came some way to meet us and dealt with Krupp's and tore to pieces and broke up the great Krupp empire which has been the cause of so much evil in the past.

My Lords, I have little more to say, except one or two local points about the range itself. This range is in the southernmost part of Wales, and I believe that all firing is done practically out to sea. The area covers about 6,000 acres of good agricultural land, but that is not the point becaues the area is already a range and we are not asking for this land to be taken over. All that is going to the Germans are the facilities. But may I ask what the Government propose to do to protect the rights of the civil population in this area? If there are any difficulties with the Germans, will they be liable in a local magistrates' court or will they not? Secondly, will there be any interference with the amenities of the neighbourhood? I have heard that the tanks coming in will require suitable widening of the roads. Why this should apply to German tanks and not to British tanks I do not know. That has been said by the Minister in another place—at least, he did not say it, but a question was put to him and he did not deny it.

Finally, will this plan interfere in any way with the development of Milford Haven? As we know, the Haven has been the subject of tremendous development and I must take the opportunity to congratulate the noble Lord, Lard Dynevor, and his Harbour Commission, or whatever they are called. In the last three years the registered tonnage in the Haven has gone up from 46,000 tons to 450,000 tons a month and I hope that this handsome increase will not be affected by interference from these German tanks and other equipment.

2.57 p.m.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, I had not intended to say anything: I was going to agree to this Motion moved by the First Lord of the Admiralty without debate, because the matter has already been debated sufficiently in another place. But the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, had a few comments to say, and perhaps I had better say a word too. It is only recently that he left the Labour Party, but perhaps he has forgotten that he was a Minister of some rank, at any rate in 1950, when the decision was taken by the Government to admit Germany to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. Perhaps he would cast his mind further back; and if so, he might agree that Ernest Bevin and myself had a somewhat more prominent position than most people in setting up the military organisation of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.

LORD OGMORE

My Lords, I agreed with it at the time and I agree with it now. I am not arguing about that. All I am saying is: why have the Labour Party departed from their excellent record with regard to N.A.T.O.?

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

What I am suggestion is that we hardly need lecturing at what may be the particular time in question on this matter.

I found some of the noble Lord's other remarks quite interesting. My Party did not vote against the Motion moved in another place. Members made certain references to some of the matters which have been covered by the noble Lord himself, and which I had not intended to repeat in this House. However, the point is that there is still, of course, latent in this country some anti-German feeling; and it is no use hiding it from ourselves, because it is there. The only matter which makes one look at this particular agreement which has been made, and to which we agree, is that it is described as an experimental one; and if it is experimental then apparently you have to wait and see how the experiment works.

The real fact is, of course, as the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has fully recognised, that in this matter of mutuality in contributing to the defence of the freedom of the West we all have Liabilities which we must honourably accept. In this particular case I suppose we are almost the last of the prominent original members of N.A.T.O. to offer such facilities as this particular Order requires, and I think it is probably high time that we were not behind other countries in this matter. If we consider, for example, that France, which suffered so heavily in invasion and had such a history of battle controversy with Germany, has actually offered, although under some national criticism, and carried out, co-operation of this kind, it does not seem to me to be unreasonable that we should offer and carry through the same facilities in this country.

We must also remember that, with the peculiar geographical boundaries now existing in Germany, with so much of what would be the natural training grounds of German forces still taken up by occupational forces, there is an additional case to be put up on behalf of this matter. Personally I should have preferred it if it had been possible to arrange that in all training operations of this kind the forces coming for training would be ultimately under British command. In that event, some of the legal questions which might be likely to arise would be subject to a different jurisdiction. But that does not appear the case here. Where we have had individuals coming here for instruction, consultation and so on, with attachment to individual units of the Army in the last few years since Germany entered N.A.T.O., they have always been under the local British military commander's control. This is somewhat different, and I suppose from that point of view the bringing of Germany into the terms of the Act now has to be looked at perhaps to see the results of this visit on the civil population. In the meantime, I hope that we as a nation, remembering all the difficulties we went through, but also remembering that we now face a common danger together, will do what we can to give all the mutual assistance we can afford to the maintenance of this defence.

3.3 p.m.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, and to the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition for what they have said in support of this Order, and I agree with them, while remaining neutral in the battle practice between the two noble Lords. I am quite sure it is right that we should recognise that, if N.A.T.O. is going to be an effective Alliance, all the N.A.T.O. countries must work together and, as the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore said, pool their resources as much as possible. We have accepted Federal Germany as a member of the Alliance, and it would be quite wrong to deny the assistance which N.A.T.O. has confirmed she needs, and which we can provide. It is obviously in our interests that Germany, as a member of N.A.T.O., should have well-trained and efficient forces.

The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, asked me what was the position of those who might have claims for damage against German troops in this country. The question will be covered under the Status of Forces Agreement, and will be the same as the arrangements for claims against American or other troops already stationed in this country and covered by the Act. Anyone with a claim of this sort should forward it to the Claims Commission, who will investigate it and assess it as if it were a claim against our own forces. If the damage was caused by an official act of a German soldier on duty, the claim would be met by the Government. If damages were not agreed, It would be open to the claimant to issue a writ against the forces concerned; but it would fall to the Government to pay whatever damages the court awarded. But if the damage was caused by an act of a German soldier off duty, the claim would be referred to the German authorities, who would consider whether or not to offer an ex gratia payment; though it would still be open to the claimant to take court proceedings against members of visiting forces for damages caused off duty. Although it is not possible to enforce the payment of damages awarded in this way, the Government would naturally negotiate with the German Government until satisfactory damages have been arrived at. In point of fact, however, our experience over the last few years has been that the settlement of claims for damage by visiting forces has, generally speaking, been very satisfactory; and, of course, the arrangements have been in force since 1952.

The noble Lord also asked me whether or not the use of the range at Castle-martin by German troops would destroy any of the amenities. Of course the German troops there will not be going outside the boundaries of the existing range; and there is no question that any more of the countryside round about will be affected. In any event, the visit on this occasion is a trial; and we must see that not too much damage is done to the land on the range or to the winter grazing which goes on there. Lastly, the noble Lord asked me about Milford Haven. There will be no danger to Milford Haven from the range, because the danger area lies to the south, and not into the Sound; and there should be absolutely no danger or destruction to the development plans of Milford Haven. My Lords, I hope that I have answered all the questions, and that your Lordships will now approve the Order.

On Question, Motion agreed to.