§ 3.13 p.m.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what were the conditions attached to the specification MEA839A for tinned stewed steak issued by the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and what were the reasons for them.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (EARL WALDEGRAVE)My Lords, the conditions are too long to be easily summarised, but I have placed copies of the specification in the Library of the House. It follows, broadly, the specification used for the purchase of stewed steak by Government Departments. But because this particular purchase was required by my Department for long-term storage, it was considered necessary to require that the cattle should be slaughtered on the premises where the canning was undertaken. This ensures the minimum handling, reduces the possibility of contamination between slaughter and manufacture, and so lessens the risk of deterioration during long-term storage.
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his Answer. I should like to ask him whether it is not the case that Her Majesty's Government, by public general legislation, have made it 1305 practically impossible, in Scotland, at any rate, to obtain licences for private abattoirs on the ground that they could not maintain the best standards?—and nobody knows better than I the effect of killing conditions on the taste of meat. Why, therefore, did they enforce conditions which had the effect of giving the contract overseas, where they have not the same control over the conditions at the slaughterhouse?
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, I am not sure about the Scottish legislation, but it is not at all the case that one cannot have private slaughterhouses in this country. I opened a new private slaughterhouse quite recently near Gloucester. I think the noble Lord must be misinformed about that matter.
§ BARONESS HORSBRUGHCould the noble Earl say how long one can store stewed steak?
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, that is a technical question, and I should need to obtain the advice of my scientific advisers. But it is in the public interest that these commodities which are required for long-term storage should last a long time, and not have to be turned over, at perhaps a financial loss, too frequently.
LORD SALTOUNIs the noble Earl aware that in the county of Aberdeenshire, for example, there is only one very large private slaughterhouse, which retained its licence with great difficulty only after a public hearing? So far as I am aware, there is no other private slaughterhouse in Aberdeenshire. And is the noble Earl aware that there is a very fine canning factory at Fraserburgh, Morayshire, and that 400 yards away, just round the harbour, there is a slaughterhouse which was retained by the borough with some difficulty, on which the borough has spent £25,000 and as to which I have been told that there is no superior abattoir north of the Border? Can the noble Earl say why, in view of that, a condition was imported into this specification which made it practically certain that such a place could not tender and that the contract had to be given overseas?
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, first of all, I do not know the conditions of individual slaughterhouses in 1306 Scotland or in Aberdeen; but if this slaughterhouse that the noble Earl is referring to is so good, if he can give me the name of the firm, I can tell him whether a tender was sent to them. I have the names here of all the 71 people to whom tenders were sent, and I have no doubt that a tender was sent to this firm. I do not know for what reasons they did not tender, or why their tender was not accepted.
§ LORD MACPHERSON OF DRUMOCHTERMy Lords, if I may declare my interest in this matter, I am speaking as an English canner of canned meat, and I want to say that there is great dissatisfaction in the canned food business of England—
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order, order!
§ LORD MACPHERSON OF DRUMOCHTERI am coming to the question. Is the noble Earl aware that the greatest dissatisfaction exists in this matter among members of the Food Manufacturers Federation in England? And, in answer to a question which was raised, if I may answer it, may I say that canned stewed steak will keep for a great many years, especially if it is packed in England. I should like to ask the noble Earl this question: why was it necessary to have the stipulation in connection with these tenders that the meat had to be from carcases killed on the premises? This is quite unusual and, we say, quite unnecessary.
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, I am aware (and, if I was not before, I should have been now) that there is some dissatisfaction with the fact that the successful tenderer did not happen to be either in Aberdeen or in England, but I gave in my first Answer the reason why. Our scientific advisers advised us that it was necessary to put in this new requirement on account of this long-term storage, to lessen the risks of deterioration—as an added precaution.
§ LORD MACPHERSON OF DRUMOCHTERWould the noble Earl say who the Ministry's scientific advisers are? It seems extraordinary.
EARL WALDEGRAVENo, my Lords, I cannot possibly give the names. They are some of the finest scientists in the country. Some of them are civil 1307 servants. They are the scientific advisers who advise my right honourable friend in the Ministry of Agriculture and Food.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, in order to relieve any anxiety on the part of consumers, can the noble Earl give an assurance that the specification for tinned steak referred to in the Question does insist that it should contain beef?
§ LORD MACPHERSON OF DRUMOCHTERNot whale?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, the noble Earl has read the specification, and surely he can give us an assurance because it is of great importance. Does "tinned steak" mean "cooked beef"?
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, before we leave this matter I should like to ask the noble Earl whether the idea that meat killed on the premises lasts longer when tinned than meat killed under perfect conditions off the premises is merely a pious opinion, or has it been proved by experiment?
LORD REAMy Lords, might I just ask whether it would not be more convenient to carry the cans to the cattle rather than the cattle to the cans?
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, the answer to the first question of the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, is that I do not think this matter can be proved by experiment. The scientific advice is that if you diminish the risks of contamination between slaughter and manufacture you will get a better article. I forget the question of the noble Lord, Lord Rea.
LORD REAMy Lords, I asked whether it would not be easier to carry the cans to the cattle rather than the cattle to the cans.
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, it would be difficult, I think, to can half a million pounds worth of beef on the farms.