HL Deb 20 December 1961 vol 236 cc728-30

2.43 p.m.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the estimated total expenditure on education in prisons, borstals, and detention centres, for the financial year 1962–1963 and how this compares with the current financial year.]

THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (EARL BATHURST)

My Lords, the Vote for Education and Recreation in Prisons, England and Wales, for 1961–62 is £341,540, and in Scotland £12,145. The Estimates for 1962–63 are not yet settled, but, subject to the Government's consideration of Estimates generally, the present intention is that the total shall be about the same.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I am very pleased to receive that Answer, because there was a report in the Sunday Times that there would be a cut of about one-sixth in the expenditure on education. May I ask the noble Earl, being gratefully aware of his interest in this subject, whether he can make representations to the Prison Commissioners that greater weight should be placed in prison training on the semi-skilled occupations, in which the men are more likely readily to find employment when they come out of prison, than in the traditional craft occupations?

EARL BATHURST

My Lords, we should not be confused over the type of education. So far as I know, there will be no cuts in the ordinary day-time training. Any cut will be purely on educational subjects in the evening, in respect of work taken by outside schoolteachers or such worthy people who come in to do prison training. That is the sort of cut that is bound to take place.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, I find some difficulty in following the noble Earl, because he said in the first place that the expenditure was about the same, and he now refers to certain cuts. Would he explain that?

EARL BATHURST

I thought the whole point of the noble Lord's Question was the raising of schoolteachers' salaries and the salaries of the sort of people who do this training. As I say, the estimates are about the same, so obviously some of the classes are bound to be cut.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

Would the noble Earl not agree that if a little more were spent on education in prison there might be fewer persons who returned to prison?

EARL BATHURST

My Lords, it rather depends upon the sort of education. I am certain we are all agreed that there should be the best education facilities that are possible in prisons but, like all Departments of Her Majesty's Government, Estimates must be held to. But I assure the noble Lord that the Estimates will be the same, and that there is no intention to take any money away from them.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that this cut would amount to about £50,000? It will be an effective cut, in real terms, which is a trifle compared to the £70 million the Government have just squandered on farms. May I also ask the noble Earl whether he will approach his right honourable friend the Home Secretary to see whether this matter can be reconsidered, because a real cut in prison education training for occupations afterwards is a deplorably false economy? If this cut is made, it is bound to lead to far greater expenditure, willy-nilly, on prisons.

EARL BATHURST

My Lords, I think that what will happen is that there will probably be rather fewer classes, but there will be facilities for just the same number of prisoners to attend the classes. Some of the classes are already under strength. It would seem ridiculous to keep those classes going, when they might be amalgamated. Obviously, some of the classes may have to be discontinued, but I hope that it will be possible to keep as many going as the Estimates will permit.