§ 2.35 p.m.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the lack of official knowledge, and the desire expressed by the Federation of Master Butchers, they will institute an inquiry into the relationship, during 1961, between the fat stock prices and the retail prices of beef; and, whether they will implement the guarantees to farmers by abandoning support subsidies and substituting minimum prices, supported, when necessary, by Government buying and control of imports.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (EARL WALDEGRAVE)My Lords, the Answer to both parts of the first Question on the Order Paper is, No.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that there is a sum of £70 million involved in these subsidies? The butchers and dealers deny that they have had any part of this sum, which is equal to two whole groundnut schemes. Is it not, therefore, the duty of Her Majesty's Government to inquire into this sum which has vanished into thin air and to let us know exactly what has happened to it?
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, of course the Government are aware of the Supplementary Estimate that my right honourable friend has had to put before Parliament, but some of the other statements made by the noble Lord, that the butchers and farmers (I think he said) have had no part of this, are not substantiated by the facts.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, will the noble Earl say which statements in the Question are inaccurate? Is he aware that in the days of Sir Stafford Cripps the £400 million worth of subsidies nearly all went to the reduction of retail prices? Now we have a level of some £350 million, and it is difficult to see the extent to which farmers and consumers benefit. Is it not, therefore, not merely important, but absolutely vital, that the Government should make these inquiries to satisfy themselves, and, indeed, to satisfy us, that this money is not being squandered and that other methods would not be better? Will the noble Earl answer that part of the Question?
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, I did not mean to imply, and I hope I did not say, that any part of the Question was inaccurate. But there are two questions: would the Government institute an inquiry; and would they abandon the deficiency payments system or the support subsidies and substitute minimum prices, supported, where necessary, by Government buying and control of imports? The only simple and accurate answer to those two questions is, No, my Lords: the Government are not prepared to do either.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I seem to remember statements by the Minister on two occasions that the system of support which is at present in operation is not going to be continued, and that farmers will have to look to markets for the support that they require. Is that the position? Is that why the Government are not giving us quite straight answers to the Question?
EARL WALDEGRAVESurely, my Lords, my answer was straight enough. What the Minister said was that if negotiations were successful—I know the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition would not think they were successful—and we were to join the Common Market, then this system of support would have to be changed.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, on the contrary, that is not exactly what I put to the noble Earl. I understood from the Minister's statement on another occasion 727 that he is not prepared to go on with subsidies, but will leave it to the market to supply the support to farmers, whether there is entry into the Common Market or not.
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, I have not an exact reference to what the noble Viscount is referring to. I know that my Minister has said that this system is under strain—I think those were the words used. With that I think we should all agree. But I have not heard him go further than that.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, if the Minister will not make a retrospective inquiry into these retail prices, could he not at least make a prospective inquiry for next year? Surely there will be no difficulty about this. The Government have the machinery in their social survey for collecting retail price data. Will the noble Earl look into the question of making the inquiry in future, if he cannot look backwards?
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, that is another question. I will certainly bring to my right honourable friend's notice that that is what is desired by the noble Lord. I should like to make it clear that it is not a question of our not having the data on which to base estimates—though unfortunately sometimes they may be wrong—but it is our policy that we do not disclose individual items that make up the retail price index.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, this is a particular item, and really there is no technical difficulty whatsoever about collecting this information: it is available to every housewife. All that is necessary is to pick a sample butcher and go to interview him and collect the prices. I cannot see that there is any technical difficulty about it, and it would be most desirable and quite cheap to do it. I hope the Minister will consider this sympathetically, because it really is a piece of common sense.
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, the Question on the Order Paper relates to 1961, and I have answered that. Whether or not it would be desirable to have some sort of roving inquiry in the future about the future trends of prices and of marketing in general is really another matter. But I will bring what 728 the noble Lord has said to the attention of my right honourable friend.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, may I suggest to my noble friend (I do not want to prolong this particular Question unduly) that in view of the rather unsatisfactory nature of the answers we should put down a Motion on agriculture very early after the Recess?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble Leader for that suggestion, and I agree that this subject cannot be dealt with merely by Question and Answer. But could I ask the noble Earl these questions? First, will he arrange to publish the retail prices of beef, which have already been collected by the Ministry of Labour, as he stated last week (so the information is known); and if not, why not? Secondly, will he say whether the Government are satisfied with the present position of the level of subsidies, and if not, what alternative methods they have in mind?
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT' HAILSHAM)My Lords, now that the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition has given notice that he intends to move a Motion, I think it would not be right to continue by way of Question and Answer.