HL Deb 19 December 1961 vol 236 cc649-52

2.32 p.m.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can now give up to date figures of—

  1. (i) the number and ages of persons diagnosed as suffering from psychopathic disorder and admitted to hospital or received into guardianship under Part IV of the Mental Health Act, 1959; and
  2. (ii) the number of such persons who have subsequently been discharged either as the result of appeal to mental health review tribunals or otherwise;
and whether they can indicate what information is available as to the nature of the abnormally aggressive or seriously irresponsible conduct which led to the diagnosis of these persons as suffering from psychopathic disorder.]

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, between November 1, 1960, and April 30, 1961, 169 persons classified as suffering from psychopathic disorder without any other form of mental disorder were admitted to hospitals in England and Wales under Part IV of the Mental Health Act. At April 30, 46 patients who had been admitted under Part IV and who were at that date classified as suffering from psychopathic disorder were in hospital, 28 of them still under compulsory powers. None had been discharged by order of a Mental Health Review Tribunal. Information about age is not available in the form asked for, but I am sending to the noble Baroness such particulars as are available. Information about the grounds for the diagnosis of psychopathic disorder is not available. No psychopathic patients had been received into guardianship up to December 31, 1960, the latest date for which information can at present be provided.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. Would he not agree that the definition of "irresponsible or aggressive conduct" is as much a moral as a medical matter? Would he not also agree that it is desirable in the public interest that information should be available as to how judgments of such conduct are arrived at, in view of the considerable number of young persons who are deprived of their liberty on account of such judgments?

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, I had not anticipated that the noble Baroness would invite me to go quite so far as that beyond the scope of the Question. I should be grateful if she could put it down.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, I may have misunderstood the noble Lord, but I thought that I had put it down. I asked what information was available as to the nature of the abnormally aggressive or seriously irresponsible conduct which led to the diagnosis of these persons as suffering from psychopathic disorder. I understood the noble Lord to say that no information was available, and I am asking the noble Lord whether he does not agree that it is very important that information should be available, in view of the considerable number of persons who lose their liberty under these (as I have suggested to him) moral as well as medical judgments.

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, perhaps I misunderstood the noble Baroness. I thought she was asking me to make a pronouncement about the moral aspect of this problem and it was on that that I asked for notice. However, I am advised that it is not practicable to collect particulars of the grounds for diagnosis of psychopathic disorder, mainly because there is much too wide a variety of forms of conduct which are considered to contribute to psychopathic states. In any event, abnormally aggressive or seriously irresponsible conduct is only one element in the definition of "psychopathic disorder".

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord. But is he aware that in the United States of America in certain textbooks which are apparently regarded as reputable, the definition of "psychopathic disorder" includes persons who have a conscientious objection to military service and persons who are described as radicals? Will he give us an assurance that these definitions, about which he says no information can be disclosed, do not include those categories in this country?

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, I am grateful for that information, of which I was not aware. But I am not quite sure of the bearing that that has upon the definition of a psychopathic state as we have it under the Act in this country. I think it is correct to say that the pattern of behaviour must be such as to indicate a persistent disorder or disability of mind, and the condition must require or be susceptible to medical treatment.

LORD SALTOUN

My Lords, may I ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is not the case that most of the people so treated have appeared in court, and, if that is so, there should be some record of their treatment?

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, I do not think I can say any more about the availability of information than I have already said.

2.37 p.m.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can now give up-to-date figures of the number and ages of persons suffering from psychopathic disorder in respect of whom hospital or guardianship orders have been made under Part V of the Mental Health Act, 1959.]

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, the provisional total of persons suffering from psychopathic disorder, without any other form of mental disorder, who were the subject of hospital orders made by the courts in England and Wales between November 1, 1960, and September 30, 1961, is 72. Of these, 4 were aged 14 to 16; 22 were aged 17 to 20; and 46 were aged 21 and over. No guardianship orders were made in respect of such patients during this period.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. In view of the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, will the noble Lord say whether he is satisfied with the fact that the number of persons detained as psychopaths inrespect of whom court proceedings have been taken, is very much smaller than the number of persons who are so detained without court proceedings? I believe the figures are 72 to 169.

LORD NEWTON

Yes.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

I asked the noble Lord whether he was satisfied that this was at it should be.

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, I think that it is a state of affairs which we must accept as being so for the time being.