HL Deb 22 June 1960 vol 224 cc461-2
LORD DERWENT

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government:

  1. (i) Whether the derogatory remarks made by the Minister of Transport on June 1, 1960, referred to the Yorkshire North Riding County Council;
  2. (ii) Whether the Minister of Transport had personally discussed the matter with this local authority;
  3. (iii) Whether the Minister was unaware that the County Council objected to the Ministry proposals largely on the grounds of Road Safety.]

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, my right honourable friend had the North Riding County Council in mind in making the remarks to which my noble friend refers. He has had, as yet, no opportunity of discussing this matter personally with the local authority. My right honourable friend is aware that the Council consider the route proposed to be unsuitable for a large volume of traffic. His personal view is that at holiday periods the route could take additional traffic, without any disproportionate risk, and so relieve the congestion on the main road, which is aggravated at such times by the frequent passage of excursion trains over a level crossing.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, is my noble friend really saying that when the Minister differs from a local authority on a purely technical matter he is entitled to say that the different opinion held by the County Council is against the public interest, due to local parochial interests?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, I should have thought that my right honourable friend would not have made the remarks to which my noble friend refers unless he had carefully thought out what were the facts of the matter. He is, I repeat, of the opinion that this road could be used for making a valuable contribution to the relief of traffic; and if the local authority do not agree, it is presumably because of some local interest.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, is it not a fact that the local authority did not agree because they said that the greate volume of traffic would be unsafe, for at week-ends that road already carries a larger volume of traffic than is safe? And I think that everyone who knows it would agree with the County Council. Surely that is hardly the kind of difference of opinion upon which the Minister should use insulting language about the local authority.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, the fact that I have answered my noble friend's Question does not imply that I agree that my right honourable friend's remarks are either derogatory or insulting. I am surprised to learn from my noble friend that this road is so very unsuitable, because it is classified as a Class I road, for which the local authority can get from my right honourable friend a grant of 75 per cent. for improvement and maintenance. If it is so unsuitable as a Class I road, he may have to look again at that.

LORD REA

My Lords, I understand from the noble Lord's second answer that the Minister had not had any opportunity of making contact with the local authority. Could he amplify that statement? It seems rather extraordinary that the Minister would go so far as to make the remarks he did if he had had no opportunity of making contact.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, I said that my right honourable friend had personally had no opportunity. Contact is made regularly on his behalf through the usual channels—the divisional road engineer. I said that he had had no personal opportunity.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, does my noble friend mean that the man from Whitehall is always correct?

LORD CHESHAM

No, my Lords, I do not mean that at all. I mean absolutely no more than the reply to my noble friend when I said that the Minister himself has not had an opportunity of meeting the local authority.