§ LORD MATHERSMy Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government to state when the report from the Medical Research Council regarding drink and road accidents will be published and when the intentions of Her Majesty's Government as to scientific tests will be announced.]
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)My Lords, a paper summarising the results of the experiments on the effect of alcohol on a skill resembling driving, which were conducted under the auspices of the Medical Research Council, was published in the British Medical Journal on October 28, 1958, and as soon as Professor Drew has completed his revision of the form of presentation with full details of the methods used and of the data collected in this experiment, the Medical Research Council intend to publish it in one of their series of memoranda.
I much regret the delay, but Professor Drew assures me that he has in substance 179 completed the work, and that he should be in a position to place it in the hands of the Medical Research Council by the end of next month. The Medical Research Council would then arrange to publish the document at the earliest possible moment, and, subject to any difficulties in printing, it should be in the hands of the public within three months of the receipt of the document.
With regard to the second part of the Question, my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation has asked me to say that as this report is based on experiments conducted entirely under particular laboratory conditions, it does not, in his view, in itself provide a basis on which proposals could be framed to extend the use of scientific tests to determine whether a driver is under the influence of alcohol. He is, however, continuing discussions on the general issue with the Medical Research Council.
§ LORD MATHERSMy Lords, may I ask the Minister, first of all, whether it is the intention that the Paper will be published by the Government and not by an outside body. We do not want to be referred to an outside body for the information contained in this Report. The noble Viscount is aware that this matter has been under examination for a very considerable time. Has nothing been done in the way of ascertaining the experience of the many other countries where tests of a definite kind have been found most useful?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, in regard to the first part of the Question as I have repeatedly explained to the noble Lord, this document relates to a piece of research sponsored by the Medical Research Council, and it will he published in exactly the same way as all other pieces of research sponsored by the Medical Research Council are published. It may, for a particular reason, he printed by Her Majesty's Stationery Office, but it is the Medical Research Council's research which will be so published. As regards the second part of the Question, inquiries are under foot but, as the noble Lord knows, they did not, in fact, form part of the research the report of which he is asking for.
§ LORD MATHERSMy Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for that further 180 answer, but he must be aware of the urgency of this matter and the necessity for coming to some conclusions about it. I want to assure him definitely that what is looked for is a statement on behalf of the Government in order that it may be demonstrated what action is being taken to deal with this matter.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMI think, with respect, that the noble Lord is confusing two separate issues. The first question related to the publication of the results of a particular piece of scientific research. That is one issue, and I have dealt with it. If the noble Lord wants to press me on the general issue, as to whether it is desirable to introduce legislation altering the tests for determining the effect of alcohol on drivers, I think that that had better be discussed out of the context of this particular piece of research. But, as I told the noble Lord, discussions between the Medical Research Council, for which I am departmentally responsible in this House, and my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation are still going on.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEMy Lords, what is the purpose of research if it is not to improve public safety? My noble friend is asking whether measures will be taken to make this research available in such a form as to reduce the number of motor accidents.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMI am responsible for scientific research, the purpose of which is to discover what the truth of the matter is. The noble Viscount cannot have studied the numerous questions and answers which have related to this subject if he thinks that this was other than a perfectly normal piece of scientific research undertaken by the Medical Research Council. It will no doubt have a bearing on the particular practical problem which interests the noble Viscount. But the Question I was asked to answer related to the publication of a piece of medical research.
§ LORD LAWSONMy Lords, my noble friend asked; Do the Government consider this question one of urgency? It is common knowledge that this matter of deaths on the road is getting more and more serious and certainly merits more consideration than it seems to be getting at the present time.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, the noble Lord will remember that this matter of deaths on the road was discussed at great length in this House in the last few days. It is altogether outside the scope of the Question I was asked and was trying to answer.
§ VISCOUNT STANSGATEMy Lords, is it not well known that my noble friend has repeatedly asked this Question, with a view to saving the lives of men, women and children on the roads? What is the good, therefore, of the Lord President saying that this is general research? It is applied research that is needed to reduce the death roll.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I can still answer only the Question I am asked. If the noble Lord will ask another Question he will get another Answer.
§ LORD MATHERSMy Lords, what I have been striving to get is a Government statement of facts and of their intentions; whether such a statement will be published, and when.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, may I ask whether we can be assured that Her Majesty's Government will not begin to make up their minds on the matter until they have all the information they require?
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, may I ask whether the noble Viscount has read the very illuminating letter which appeared in The Times newspaper two or three days ago on the subject?
§ LORD HANKEYMy Lords, may I ask whether it would not clear the issue if the noble Viscount could tell the House how Members can obtain the reports of the Medical Research Council. I have had long association with that Council, but I have for some years been out of touch, and I can never get hold of their reports.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I think the answer is that it can be bought at any bookstall if it is asked for by name. If the noble Lord finds any difficulty in getting these reports through the trade or through the Stationery Office, I would ensure that he got them. But it is news to me that they cannot be bought like any other publication.
§ LORD TAYLORCannot they be obtained at the Printed Paper Office by saying that it is a report required for the purposes of one's Parliamentary work?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMI should have thought so. I thought the noble Lord's question related to possession, not only by Members of this House, but by those outside this House who might not be able to obtain them so cheaply.
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, is it not the case that we can get only Stationery Office publications and not others?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I think I should need notice of that question. I do not want to answer ill-advisedly, although I think the noble Lord could get this Report. Certainly it is my intention in this particular case to use my authority to get it printed by the Stationery Office. But that might not normally be so. I am doing that for reasons which may be obvious in this particular case.