§ 2.38 p.m.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the actual cost of each parking meter which it is proposed to install for the experimental area in the central area of London; how many meters it is proposed to install; how many people it is proposed to employ as supervisors; whether they will be police officers or traffic wardens; what is the estimated cost of supervision, repair, maintenance and safeguarding of the meters; under what vote and subhead the expenditure will be shown; and what are the differences alleged to exist in London as compared with Paris in the "Blue zone".]
911§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, these questions about parking meters are matters for the local authority, once my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation has made the necessary order empowering the local authority to install parking meters. I am, however, informed that the cost of meters including installation, may be in the order of £30 to £40 each. Under the order which my right honourable friend will make for Westminster some 650 meters are to be installed. A proposal by the St. Marylebone Borough Council for a scheme involving a further 515 meters is still under consideration. The Westminster City Council propose to appoint eight parking meter attendants and one supervisor. The Westminster City Council have estimated their annual expenditure on parking meters, including maintenance, repair and supervision, at between £15,000 and £16,000. No Government expenditure is involved.
The parking control system introduced in the "Blue zone" of Paris is suitable primarily for the limitation of parking time and not of parking space. In London, where the streets are much more congested, we need also to reduce the number of parked cars and to confine parking to those places where it will least interfere with moving traffic and deliveries. The parking meter is therefore particularly suited to London conditions because it will itself indicate where parking is permitted and also, by levying a charge, regulate the demand for parking places and provide funds for off-street parking.
§ EARL HOWEMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he does not think that the experiment which is to be carried out in the central area is likely to be somewhat incomplete in its character unless a simultaneous experiment using the same machinery as the "Blue zone" is also carried out? May I ask the noble Lord whether he is not aware that the Answer he has given indicates that the expenditure involved here to everybody—to the authority, to the Westminster City Council and, in the long run, to the motor world—is going to be enormous; and should not this matter be further considered instead of sending the very prejudiced chairman of the London Traffic Advisory Committee to conduct an inquiry over in Paris?
§ THE EARL OF LUCANMy Lords, could the Minister say whether it is a fact that the Paris system, as carried out now, requires some 650 police supervisors?
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, I must begin by asking my noble friend to realise that I cannot possibly agree with him in his accusations of prejudice which he levelled against Mr. Alex Samuels. I have explained to the noble Earl, recently and in some detail, why the Paris scheme has not been considered suitable for London. One of the reasons is that just given by the noble Earl opposite: that it requires a lot of people to administer it; it is very easy to evade; and it does not, for the reasons I have just given, fulfil the conditions which we think are required of such a scheme in London. I know the noble Earl's prejudice against this scheme, but I really think we must give it a trial and see whether it works. To introduce both this scheme of parking meters and at the same time the Paris scheme of the "Blue zone" would, I think, make chaos even more chaotic.
LORD TEYNHAMMy Lords, arising out of the reply of the noble Lord, would he agree that in general the introduction of parking meters in London would have a most deleterious effect on the appearance of our streets and our squares, and would also cause obstruction to those people using the congested pavements in Central London; whereas, of course, neither of these considerations applies in the case of the scheme used in Paris?
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, that may be, but some of our squares and streets do not look very pretty as it is, with vehicles parked three or four deep all round.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, when my noble friend says that the use of parking meters in conjunction with the "Blue zone" system would produce chaotic conditions, does he mean in fact that the conjunction of these two types of scheme has been carefully studied at the Ministry?
§ LORD MANCROFTI do not think that any study at all is required to imagine the effect of these two schemes tried contemporaneously in the same area or the same street.
§ LORD DERWENTIs my noble friend not aware that such a scheme has actually been worked out and will shortly be submitted to the Minister by professional people?
§ LORD MANCROFTWhilst I am certain that the scheme will be studied with great interest, my guess, for what it is worth, is that it would still end in chaos.
§ EARL HOWEMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, if the experiment in the central area of London results in an improvement in the conditions there, whether he will bear in mind the fact that when parking meters are installed in that area many people who now leave their cars there will probably go to adjoining areas where they will not be worried?
§ LORD MANCROFTI really think we had better wait and see how the scheme works.