§ 2.38 p.m.
§ LORD TEVIOTMy Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government for information on the Food Standards Committee including the following points:—
- (1) to which Government Department is the Committee responsible; and to whom does it report;
- (2) what is the scope of its functions;
- (3) how it is composed;
- (4) whether it is entitled to receive or invite evidence;
- (5) what are the precise terms of the new reference arising out of the debate in this House on June 7 last on flour improvers and the report of the Panel on Composition and Nutritive value of Flour (Cmd. 9757);
- (6) which Government Department is the final arbiter as to what complete composition of the nation's bread is suitable for the health of our people.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (EARL ST. ALDWYN)My Lords, the Food Standards Committee was appointed by the Minister of Food in 1947. Administrative services for it are now provided by my Department. The Committee reports to the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the Minister of Health and the Secretary of State for Scotland. Its terms of reference are:
To review the composition of foods (other than liquid milk) and to advise the Ministers of Food and Health and the Secretary of State for Scotland as to the provision to he made concerning the composition of foods (other than liquid milk) and the labelling or marking of any foods for which such provision is made, by:Statutory Orders under the Defence (Sale of Food) Regulations; orRegulations (other than Milk and Dairies Regulations) under the Food and Drugs Acts, and corresponding enactments relating to Scotland;for preventing danger to health, loss of nutritional value or otherwise protecting purchasers".The Committee includes members appointed on the nomination of the Medical Research Council, the Society of Public Analysts, the Food Manufacturers' Federation and the Parliamentary Committee of the Co-operative Union; other members with experience of food technology and administration who serve on a personal basis; and representatives of Departments, including the Department of the Government Chemist. The Chairman is the Chief Scientific Adviser (Food) in my Department. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a full list of the members. The Committee is entitled to receive and invite evidence both written and oral from interested parties, and does so as part of its normal procedure.The precise terms in which the Committee will be invited to consider the need for more extensive regulations governing the composition of flour and bread have not yet been settled, but the Committee will be given scope to examine all relevant aspects of the matter, apart, of course, from those on which the Government 92 have already reached decisions in the light of the Cohen Report, namely on the iron, vitamin B1 and nicotinic acid content of flour. Decisions as to regulations governing the composition of bread are the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government on whose behalf the three Ministers answer to Parliament. The regulations are subject to Parliamentary control.
§ [Following is the list of members of the Food Standards Committee referred to by Lord St. Aldwyn]:
§ Norman C. Wright, Esq., C.B., M.A., D.Sc., Ph.D., F.R.I.C. (Chairman), Chief Scientific Adviser to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.
§ G. G. Barnes, Esq., C.B.E. (Vice-Chairman), Assistant Secretary, Ministry of Food, retired.
§ C. A. Adams, Esq., C.B.E., B.Sc., F.R.I.C., Barrister at Law, Assistant Secretary, Ministry of Food, retired.
§ N. R. Beattie, Esq., M.D., D.P.H., Senior Medical Officer, Ministry of Health.
§ Professor S. J. Cowell, M.B., F.R.C.P., Medical Research Council.
§ A. Glover, Esq., M.Sc., F.R.I.C., Parliamentary Committee of the Co-operative Union.
§ A. J. Howard, Esq., M.A., F.R.I.C., Director of Scientific- Development, Ministry of Commerce, Northern Ireland,
§ J. M. Johnstone, Esq., M.D., M.R.C.P.E., F.R.C.S.(Ed.), F.R.S.E., Senior Medical Officer, Department of Health for Scotland.
§ G. W. Monier-Williams, Esq., 0.B.E., M.C., M.A., Ph.D., F.R.I.C, Medical Officer, Ministry of Health, retired.
§ J. R. Nicholls, Esq., C.B.E., D.Sc., F.R.I.C., Deputy Government Chemist.
§ A. Propper, Esq., M.B.E., Assistant Secretary, Food Standards and Hygiene Division, M.A.F.F.
§ R. W. Sutton, Esq., B.Sc., F.R.I.C., F.C.S., Public Analyst.
§ G. Taylor. Esq., O.B.E., F.R.I.C., Public Analyst and Consulting Chemist.
§ R. F. Tyas, Esq., Assistant Secretary, Ministry of Health.
§ Colin S. Dence, Esq., Food Manufacturers' Federation.
§ Joint Secretaries:
§ M. D. M. Franklin, Esq.
§ W. M. Shortt, Esq., F.R.I.C.
§ LORD TEVIOTMy Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his most comprehensive Answer to what was, I am afraid, a rather long Question. It seems to me that behind it all the noble Earl is in entire agreement with my view, and I thank him again.
§ LORD HANKEYMy Lords, arising out of that Question, and while associating myself very strongly with what my 93 noble friend has just said, I should like to ask a question about the reservation made at the end of the Answer—that the Committee is debarred from considering points on which Her Majesty's Government have taken their decision. Supposing, as could happen, that the Committee decided against some particular chemical improver, would that not obviously immediately react on the decision of the Government to adopt 70 per cent. extraction flour for bread, with some additions? As was pointed out in our debate, the 70 per cent. flour would then be ruled out. Would it be wrong for the Committee to intervene on the question of improvers in bread as adopted by Her Majesty's Government?
EARL ST. ALDWYNMy Lords, I feel that I cannot go into a full debate on this matter, but, if I remember rightly, in the debate that we had on the question of improvers, I said that Her Majesty's Government did not make any requirement at all of the industry; it was left to the industry whether or not they used improvers. Whether improvers were used or not would make no difference to the decision of Her Majesty's Government on other matters.
§ LORD HANKEYMy Lords, is it not a known fact that bread cannot be made at present from 70 per cent. extraction flour without a chemical improver?
§ LORD HANKEYWe have been told that the aeration process is of limited utility. May I ask one other question: will Her Majesty's Government push on as rapidly as possible with forming the actual terms of reference for the Committee, because time is running out? The policy of Her Majesty's Government comes into action at the end of September; the holiday season is in sight and much of the evidence will be difficult to procure. Could action be expedited?
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, arising out of the third part of the noble Earl's Answer, may I ask him how it happens that there is such a large number of chemists upon this body and such 94 a very small number of nutritionists or physiologists? And in regard to the fourth part of his Answer, how will the general public know when any particular subject is going to be considered, so that they may have an opportunity of tendering evidence?
EARL ST. ALDWYNMy Lords, I believe I should be right in saying that when this Committee was set up its composition was very carefully considered, and to the best of my knowledge no objection has been raised to its composition. I am afraid I did not quite hear the latter part of the noble Lord's question.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, the noble Earl said, as I understand it, that this Committee could and would receive evidence, and I wish to know how anybody will know that they are considering a particular subject and thereby be in a position to tender evidence.
EARL ST. ALDWYNMy Lords, when these terms of reference have been agreed I have no doubt that they will be published, and no doubt they will be mentioned in a number of journals which the noble Lord will be reading regularly.
§ TUE EARL OF SWINTONMy Lords, would it be in order for the Committee to see half a dozen people who eat the ordinary bread, which we all like to eat, and half a dozen who eat the more abnormal kind of bread, and then make up their mind?
EARL ST. ALDWYNMy Lords, if the noble Earl would like to lead a party to give evidence I am sure that the Committee would be delighted to receive them.