§ 2.35 p.m.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, I beg to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will levy the cost of providing police patrols to heavy vehicles carrying abnormal loads along the route of their journey upon the owners of the load or the carriers, and by so doing relieve the rate- and tax-payer of an unfair burden, and at the same time, divert the conveying of these loads to another form of transport which will in turn relieve congestion upon the roads.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (LORD MANCROFT)My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are completely at one with the noble Lord in his desire to relieve congestion upon the roads, and my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation is at present actively engaged in considering the whole problem of abnormal loads. It is not, however, clear that the particular remedy suggested by the noble Lord in his Question would provide a useful answer. For instance, in most of these cases it is not practicable for the load to be carried otherwise than by road. As I informed the noble Lord in answer to a Question from him on November 9, the police undertake the task of escorting abnormal loads as part of their general duty of regulating traffic on the public highways; this is done as much for the benefit of other road users as for the owners or carriers of the loads.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, while I thank the noble Lord very 1802 much for his sympathetic reply, I would ask him to take it from me that the majority of chief constables of constabularies in this country have a tariff for the loan of police for such duties as this required by private individuals. Would the noble Lord acquaint his right honourable friend that the chief constables of the country are getting very alarmed? Finally, would he take it as an example of the great inconvenience caused to the ordinary public when I tell him that in the last twelve months the one-way traffic system in the City of Oxford had to be suspended on over 150 occasions to allow these loads to go down those streets the wrong way?
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, I will certainly look into the information which the noble Lord has given the House, and I can assure him that Her Majesty's Government are as deeply concerned as he is in this matter.
§ EARL HOWEBefore the noble Lord finally sits down, may I ask him a question? I understood him to say that there was no other way for these loads to travel. May I ask whether the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation has gone into the question of how far some of these loads, at any rate, can be transported by sea?
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, I do not think the noble Earl heard me quite correctly. I said that in most of these cases it was not practicable for the loads to go in any other way. Where it is practicable for them to go by sea we are doing all we can to encourage manufacturers to send them in that way. But I would point out to the noble Earl that to send a load by sea is much more expensive than to send it by road.
§ LORD MATHERSMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether the carriers of these abnormal loads by road are charged by the police for the extra care and attention that they demand?
§ LORD MANCROFTNo. As I informed the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, on November 9, no such charge is levied, and to levy one might, I think, cause considerable hardship and ill-feeling.
§ LORD MATHERSDoes it not appear to the noble Lord that it causes great hardship to the other carriers who might 1803 be carrying these loads? I am thinking about the railways. This is competition with the railways, paid for out of public funds.
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, I appreciate that point, too, but I am afraid that I must stick to my original contention that to make a levy in the way the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, originally suggested, and the noble Lord, Lord Mathers, is now suggesting, would cause much inequity and hardship.