§ 2.39 p.m.
§ Amendments reported (according to Order).
§ Clause 6 [Application to land held by operators on 1st July, 1948]:
§ THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR)My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 21, after ("is") insert ("or is to be").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this also is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 35, leave out from ("from") to end of line 36 and insert ("payments by the lessee under the lease").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this Amendment is consequential on the two drafting Amendments. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 37, at end insert ("or otherwise recovered by the lessee in accordance with those provisions")—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this Amendment deals with a matter which was raised and discussed on the Committee stage. I do not think I need to add to what was said then. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 6, line 19, at end insert ("or
(c) under any enactment other than the principal Act, in consequence of the imposition of ary prohibition or restriction in respect of that development").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this is another drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 20, leave out from ("fund") to ("the") in line 21 and insert ("not exceeding").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this, too, is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 6, line 26, at end insert—
("(5) In calculating the amount of any such compensation as is mentioned in subsection (4) of this section, no account shall be taken of the provisions of this section; but subsection (2) of this section shall not apply to any ironstone in respect of which a contribution has become payable by virtue of the said subsection (4)").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
1302§ VISCOUNT SAMUELmoved, after Clause 6, to insert the following new clause:
§ land held on charitable trusts
§ ".—(1) The Minister may by order direct that sections five and six of this Act shall not apply to ironstone specified in the order, being ironstone an interest in which is held on the date of the order on charitable trusts or for charitable purposes.
§ (2) No order shall be made under this section after the thirty-first day of December nineteen hundred and fifty-two.
§ (3) An order under this section may be made so as to take effect from the date of the order or from such earlier date as may be specified therein."
§ The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment is one of substance, but it applies to a very limited class of cases. As your Lordships are aware, for the purposes of the law, the tern "charities includes a large number of institutions which are other than charitable in the ordinary sense of that word. I refer especially to educational institutions, including the universities and colleges. Some of these who are estate owners own ironstone properties which come within the scope of this Bill. Representations have been made that, in certain cases, the levies to be imposed will involve a very considerable burden upon these charities. The law has frequently—in fact, as a general rule—exempted charities from taxation and from levies analogous to taxation, as, for example, under the Income Tax Acts, the Death Duties Acts, the War Damage Acts and I believe there are others. Therefore, that principle has been long recognised and approved by Parliament. Representations have been made to the Minister with respect to these particular levies, and he has agreed that in certain cases hardship may be imposed. The principle of this Amendment has been approved by him, and I now move it on behalf of the interests specially concerned, and with the assent of the Minister, with whom I have had an opportunity of discussing the matter.
§ However, the Minister has made the point that merely to insert a simple Amendment exempting charities from the scope of the Bill might be open to objection, because there are cases in which it is possible that even these charities may have been at fault. There may be some who, it could be shown, have had a bad record in this matter, so far as restoration is concerned; in the past they may 1303 have leased land for ironstone working, and been content to draw a high royalty, and, at the end, have abandoned the land as derelict. In such cases, they ought not to be exempt from the charge for restoration. Even charities may cover a multitude of sins. It is therefore thought to be necessary to allow machinery for some discrimination, where discrimination is needed; and, in accordance with the general procedure or general machinery of the Bill, that would naturally fall to be done by orders to be made by the Minister.
§ This matter has been brought to my notice very late in the day, not through my fault, but owing to some misunderstandings or delays between the parties concerned and the Ministry. As a result, it was only yesterday that I had an opportunity of studying what was proposed. It occurs to me that objection may be raised to the Amendment—indeed, I am inclined to raise objection to it myself—on the grounds that it confers an uncontrolled power on the Minister. Some time ago I myself introduced a Liberties of the Subject Bill, and protested against the tendency of modern legislation to allow unfettered powers of discrimination to a Minister on matters which could not properly be referred to courts of law but which, nevertheless, should be controlled in other ways. When this point was put to the Ministry they thought that it could be met by including the power to make orders under this new clause among the many powers contained in Clause 36 of this Bill. Clause 36 requires regulations made under the Bill to be submitted to Parliament and to be open to annulment by vote of either House. If any individual has a grievance against an order made by the Minister he at any rate has recourse to someone—namely, Parliament—by a recognised procedure. Therefore, I shall move a consequential Amendment, very short and simple, to Clause 36, the effect of which will be merely to include in the procedure already approved by the House other orders made under this Bill. I beg to move
§
Amendment moved—
After Clause 6, insert the said new clause.—(Viscount Samuel.)
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, the noble 1304 Viscount is right in saying that this Amendment was received only yesterday. And, in consequence, neither he nor I has had adequate time to consider it in detail. It gives the Minister a discretionary power and, because it does that, the Minister is inclined to feel that he can accept it. Your Lordships are aware that most charities are exempt, or partly exempt, from taxation and from certain other levies, and the Minister is prepared to accept this discretionary power, under which he will be able to grant exemption to certain ironstone land owned by charity. This should not be taken to imply that the Minister will necessarily exempt all the ironstone land owned by any charity. On that understanding I am able to accept this Amendment. As regards the consequential Amendment to Clause 36, if your Lordships are prepared to accept the Amendment now before us, I shall be prepared to accept the Amendment suggested by the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, in the later clause.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 8 [Payments to operators from the fund]:
§ LORD MACDONALD 0F GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 4, after ("be") insert ("or have been")—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MACDONALD of GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this Amendment is preparatory to the new clause to be moved after Clause 31. The effect of the new clause is to provide for the appointment of an Advisory Committee on Ironstone Restoration. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 25, leave out subsection (5).—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 9 [Determination of rates of payments to operators]:
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this Amendment is designed to give an ironstone operator who is not satisfied with the Minister's provisional determination of a rate of payment the right to a personal hearing. This matter was raised 1305 several times during the Committee stage and the Amendment is designed to achieve that object. An indication of the terms of the Amendment was given in your Lordciships' House by myself and my remarks were responded to by noble Lords. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 8, line 18, leave out line 18 and insert—
("(b) if at the time of making such representations the applicant informs the Minister that he wishes to be heard upon them, the Minister shall afford to him").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
THE MARQUESS OF READINGMy Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord. This removes the mere discretion of the Minister and substitutes a right of the person who considers himself aggrieved. That is a very considerable difference in principle which we gladly and gratefully accept.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 20, leave out from ("by") to ("or") in line 21 and insert ("the Advisory Committee on Ironstone Restoration").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ One Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 22 [Compulsory acquisition for purposes of agriculture]:
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this Amendment gives effect to a promise I made to the noble Marquess to give him more than he asked for. It is purely drafting. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 11, leave out paragraph (c).—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaensygor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ 2.46 p.m.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORmoved, after Clause 26, to insert the following new clause:
§ Modification of payments in lieu of restoration under ironstone leases
§ ".—(1) Where any ironstone comprised in a mining lease made before the commencement of this Act is worked by opencast operations in accordance with planning permission, then if—
- (a) the lease contains provisions requiring or enabling the lessee to pay a specified sum in
1306 lieu of compliance with any obligation relating to the restoration of the land, or by way of liquidated damages for breach of such an obligation, or to return the land after restoration or upon payment of a specified sum in lieu of restoration; and - (b) the planning permission is subject to conditions regulating the manner in which the land is to be dealt with after working, but not requiring its restoration in the mariner or to the extent specified in the lease, and those conditions are complied with,
§ (2) Any question whether any and if so what reduction falls to be made under this section in the sums payable under a lease shall, in default of agreement between the parties, be determined by arbitration.
§ (3) For the purpose of calculating the amount of any reduction under this section the value of any benefit accruing in consequence of compliance with any conditions shall he ascertained by reference to prices current at the time when the sum to be reduced is payable; but if that sum is less than the sum which would represent the value of the land at that time if it were restored in accordance with the provisions of the lease, the value of the benefit accruing as aforesaid shall be reduced proportionately.
§ (4) The provisions of this section shall apply in relation to a conveyance of ironstone or a conveyance of land subject to an exception of ironstone as they apply in relation to a mining lease, and as if for references to the lessee and to the lessor there were substituted respectively references to the person entitled to the ironstone by virtue of the conveyance or exception and to the person entitled to the surface of the land."
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a very technical Amendment, and I ought to apologise for so big an Amendment being introduced so late, but there is a good reason—namely that we have had to conduct long discussions with representatives of land owners and operators, and that has taken quite a time. I am sorry we were unable to place the Amendment on the Order Paper earlier but it is an agreed Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
After Clause 26, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
THE MARQUESS OF READINGMy Lords, we know there have been discussions going on for some time on this matter, but I am bound to say that the appearance of this Amendment for the first time at this stage, which is linked with 1307 the Third Reading, cannot be regarded as a very satisfactory method of dealing with a clause of this kind and length. The noble Lord says it is an agreed Amendment, but I should like to know with whom it is agreed. There are still one or two reservations in the minds of people who understand the purport of this clause—amongst whom I do not class myself. Perhaps the noble Lord will consider two Amendments to the proposed new subsection (3) and give sonic indication that they will be dealt with. The first is a small one. Where it says:
… shall be ascertained by reference to prices current at the time",we should like to see:…to prices of land current at the timeThe second point is that we do not like the drafting of the last three subsection (3). It says:…if it were restored in accordance with the provisions of the lease, the value of the benefit accruing as aforesaid shall be reduced proportionately.We should like to see the words added:…to its pre-working condition.The point is that, in many cases, particularly in Northamptonshire, leases of this kind contain no covenant actually to restore the land, but merely to pay an agreed sum of money in default of the land being restored. That situation does not seem to be covered by the present drafting, and therefore I venture to put this idea into the noble Lord's head.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I am not nearly so competent to speak on this Amendment as the noble Marquess who has just sat down; but I should like to say a word of caution about the use of Lord Macdonald's phrase "an agreed Amendment." He is always so courteous that I do not wish to be guilty of discourtesy to him. This Amendment has been agreed between operators and landlords but, however satisfactory that may be, it has not been agreed by Parliament. I am sure the noble Lord will appreciate that—I gather that he does. So the fact that the operators and landlords have agreed does not entirely remove our preoccupation about being asked to approve this rather difficult and Technical Amendment at the very last moment, before it has been fully discussed in the House. I gather that my noble 1308 friend Lord Reading thinks that the Amendment is all right, and I hope that is so. In future, however, I think it would be perhaps better, where an important Amendment of this kind has inevitably to be inserted at a late date, if the Report stage might be delayed—say for twenty-four hours—to enable the House properly to digest the Amendment before it comes before us.
§ THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH AND QUEENSBERRYMy Lords, I should like to support what has been said by the noble Marquess, Lord Reading. It is not easy to interpret quickly and clearly this new and lengthy clause. I understand that the intention is to be fair to all concerned, but there is still some anxiety in Northamptonshire, and other places, as to the effect of this clause and how it will be interpreted by different people. I was relieved to hear that agreement had been reached, but I am not certain that the agreement is complete. I think a little doubt was still felt about the restoration of the land to a quality and value as good as before. There is really no halfway house in that. It is the partly restored land which provides a problem, as the land may be handed back to the owner worth only a proportion of what it was worth before. I understand that it is intended to overcome this difficulty, but it seems that the land owner, having made his contribution, may lose both ways, unless this clause is interpreted as intended by the draftsman. I hope we may have an assurance that agreement on this matter is fairly complete, and that there is no need for anxiety.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, let me say at once that I have great sympathy with what fell from the lips of the noble Marquess and of the noble Duke. I agree that Amendments of this importance should not be introduced so late in the proceedings. The only reason here—I think a very good one—is that we are nearing the end of the Session; there is a lot to be done and it was felt that, since agreement had been reached, the Amendment could be placed on the Order Paper. I am sorry if I led the noble Marquess to understand that there was a suggestion that there was any agreement between the two sides of this 1309 House. I had no intention of doing that, and I do not think I did. The agreement is between the Landowners' Association and the Federation of British Industries. They agreed on the terms of this clause in its entirety. Whether they have overlooked anything I do not know. I can give a further explanation of the clause if noble Lords opposite feel some hesitation in supporting the new clause. If they have no hesitation in supporting it, I will refer to the Amendments suggested by the noble Marquess, Lord Reading. He knows that I could not possibly accept those Amendments here and now. The procedure between the two Houses is such that an Amendment inserted here can be further amended in another place. On that understanding, I would suggest that he accepts the new clause, knowing that what he has suggested can be considered between now and the nest stage in another place.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, if I may say so, the noble Lord says that there has been agreement between the Country Landowners' Association and the Government over this clause—
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORThe Federation of British Industries.
§ LORD CARRINGTONI do not think that is quite right. Speaking for the Landowners' Association, I think that that statement is not quite correct. So far as I know, the Government have consulted one of the officials of the Association, and he has agreed, with one or two reservations which the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, has made, that the clause, so far as he can see, is not a bad one. But the discussion had nothing to do with the Association.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, all I can say is that I am advised that the Landowners' Association and the Federation of British Industries have agreed on this clause.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOW1TT)My Lords, I think we are in danger of getting into a Committee stage discussion. I entirely agree with what the noble Marquess has said. It is obviously most unsatisfactory that a clause of this magnitude should come 1310 on at the very last moment. I am very sorry; I did not know about it. We all desire that this should not be made into a precedent, and so far as I can, I will see to it that this does not happen again. What the noble Marquess has said is perfectly right. The fact that a clause may be agreed between two interests does not in the least bind this House, which has the duty of considering not only the interests of the two immediate protagonists but also the interests of the industry as a whole, which is quite a different matter. Therefore, I express my sympathy with, and entirely support, what the noble Marquess has said. All I can say is I am sorry we have put this Amendment down in this way. I will do all I can to see that such a thing does not happen again.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, this is rather important, because we have now reached a point where it appears, from the speeches of two noble Lords, that the agreement which has been reached would not at any rate satisfy one of the two bodies concerned, a very important body representing land owners. I do not know what will happen to this Bill after we have dealt with it. Presumably, it will go hack to another place where this Amendment will have to he considered. This Amendment will go to another place as receiving the concurrence and support of your Lordships' House, Presumably, in that case, it will there be supported by the Government, and will be agreed to without further ado. I wish I could feel that there were some possibility of this matter being discussed further in this House before it is actually passed into law. No doubt, that would have been very easy earlier in the Session, but at this moment we are faced with a great shortage of time. If we were to ask the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, that this matter should be brought up again, say, on Monday or Tuesday next, I take it that he would reply that if that were done there would be no chance of the Bill's being sent back to another place and receiving the Royal Assent before the Recess. In this very difficult situation—I do not want to make too heavy weather of this but it is an important point—I wonder whether the noble Lord would give some sort of assurance that if, at a later date (because this is really the Government's doing), it turns out that 1311 there are serious objections to the Amendment, the Government will consider further Amendments to the Bill. I feel that we are being hustled into passing this Amendment, which none of us really understands. We have been put into this position through no fault of our own. Therefore, I feel that some concession ought to be made by the Government to meet our difficulties.
§ 2.57 p.m.
§ LORD LLEWELLINMy Lords, think I am in order in speaking, as I have not yet spoken on the Report stage, and, no doubt, the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, by leave of the House, will be able to answer me. I should like to ask: What are the current prices referred to in the Amendment? Are they intended to be the prices of land? If they are, there will be no harm, of course, in inserting the words suggested by the noble Marquess, Lord Reading. I would also ask: To what is the land to be restored? I presume that it is to be restored to its pre-working condition, otherwise it will not be fully restored. If it satisfies everybody to have in those words, then it will be simple to add them. I appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, cannot answer those two questions on the spur of the moment. As your Lordships' House has a considerable amount of Business to get through to-day, it occurs to me that, if it would be any advantage, no doubt we could still take the Third Reading to-day, if it were postponed until after some of the other Business that falls to be done this afternoon had been completed—that is to say, the Third Reading would not be moved immediately we had completed the Report stage, but would be moved at a later stage this afternoon, when the noble Lord would have had an opportunity of consulting his officials in the Ministry about the suggestions made by the noble Marquess, Lord Reading.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, let me again say that I am in full sympathy with the attitude taken up by the noble Marquess. He and other noble Lords who have served in another place for a number of years know that this is not the right way to legislate, but it is simply pressure of time which is causing the difficulty. The suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, is that we 1312 should complete the Report stage now in the ordinary way, leaving the Third Reading until after the remainder of the Business to-day, and that in the short intervening time we may reach some understanding on this Amendment. I was going here and now to suggest some alteration, but I am inclined to sympathise with the proposal made by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin. However, I am advised that there is one technical difficulty, in that it will not be possible to move a manuscript Amendment on Third Reading.
Another suggestion which has been made to get over this difficulty is that this new clause should be left over for further consideration between now and the time when we complete the Report stage. I understand that that would be in order. In that case, I think we had better leave this particular clause until the end of the Report stage, and not complete the Report stage until after we have finished the rest of the Business for to-day. That would help us immensely In that case I would move that the, debate on this particular clause be now adjourned until the completion of the rest of the proceedings for to-day.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, there is another difficulty. There is no difficulty in moving that the debate on this matter be adjourned, so that it may come at the end of to-day's proceedings, but more than that I do not think we can do. I am afraid it means that all the rest of the proceedings on the Report stage of the Bill will have to be taken then. I have never heard of any procedure such as this, but I think that what I shall have to do is to put a Motion that the debate on the Report stage of the Bill be adjourned.
§ VISCOUNT SAMUELIs it not possible to postpone the discussion on the new clause after Clause 26?
§ LORD LLEWELLINMy Lords, if I am allowed to speak again, on a different matter, may I say that I do not think there is great controversy about anything else in this Report stage? If we adjourn the whole matter, I think the rest of the Report stage can be completed in about five minutes.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORWhat we have to do is to adjourn the debate 1313 on the Report stage as a whole until the end of out proceedings, or to a later time to-day, and we must go on with the next Business. The Motion should be that the debate on the Report stage of the Bill be adjourned until later in the day.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORI beg to move accordingly.
§ Moved, That the debate on the Report stage of the Bill be adjourned until later in the day.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned accordingly.