§ 2.37 p.m.
§ Amendments reported (according to Order).
§ Clause 4 [Supplemental List]:
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT)My Lords, the list of Amendments looks rather lengthy but I hope and believe there is little controversy in any of them. I beg to move the first Amendment to Clause 4. It is to correct a clumsy piece of English in the original clause and is purely a drafting Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 37, leave out ("or") and insert ("nor by virtue of that appointment be qualified as a justice").——(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ LORD LLEWELLINMy Lords, this Amendment carries out an undertaking given by the noble and learned Viscount, and I think it meets the point that was made by my noble friend the Marquess of Exeter and others. We are much obliged to the Lord Chancellor for moving this Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, this Amendment is designed to meet a point which was raised originally by the Lord Chief Justice. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 4, after ("over") insert ("and neither hold nor have held high judicial office within the meaning of the Appellate Jurisdiction Act, 1876").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ LORD SCHUSTERMy Lords, the Lord Chief Justice asks me to express to the Lord Chancellor his gratitude for the Amendment he is proposing now to make.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after Clause 5 to insert the following new clause:
§ Amendment of 13 and 14 Geo. 5. c. 16
§ ". In section seventy-six of the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act, 1923 (which relates to the disqualification of justices who are members of a fishery board or subscribers to a society for the protection of fish), the words 'a member of a fishery board or' shall cease to have effect."
§ The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment owes its origin to the determination of Lord Merthyr; I am afraid that I overlooked the matter on the Re-commitment stage. The principle we have accepted in the Bill is that a justice of the peace who might be thought to have a bias by reason of the fact that he is a member of the prosecuting body shall not be allowed to sit. Unless we had inserted this Amendment there would have been an exception to what I think is on the whole a beneficial principle. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
After Clause 5 insert the said new clause.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 8 [Application of Part I to Scotland]:
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, this Amendment affects the application of Clause 4 to conditions as they exist in Scotland. Clause 4 deals with the compilation of a supplemental list, and in subsection (3) of the clause there is a provision which would enable a justice whose name appears on the supplemental list to take and authenticate by his signature any written declarations not made on oath. It has been felt that the application to Scotland of the words "not made on oath" would create considerable difficulty because of the sparseness of the population and the long distances that many people would have to travel in order to interview justices. The Amendment therefore 635 proposes that the words "not made on oath" should not apply to Scotland. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 5, after ("Scotland") insert
VISCOUNT ELIBANKMy Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lord Clydesmuir, I wish to acknowledge this Amendment and to say how beneficial it will be so far as Scotland is concerned. It is a concession which we very much appreciate. As the noble Lord has said, long distances and sparsely inhabited country are involved, especially in the Highlands. Even in my own part of Scotland, in the Lowlands, it is often difficult to find a justice of the peace, and if we were to eliminate them altogether it might cause the people great inconvenience.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to. Clause 9:
§ Area of commission
§ 9.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act, there shall be a separate commission of the peace for every county, for every county borough and for such non-county boroughs as satisfy one of the following conditions, that is to say—
§ (b) that at the end of that month the borough had a separate commission of the peace and court of quarter sessions and a population of twenty-five thousand or over;
§ (7) For the purposes of this section the population at any time of a borough shall be ascertained according to the estimates of the registrar-general.
§ 2.42 p.m.
§ LORD LLEWELLIN moved, in subsection (1) (b) to leave out" twenty-five "and insert" twenty." The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the first Amendment which stands in my name, which is to alter "twenty-five thousand" to "twenty thousand." I have down a consequential Amendment, to which perhaps your Lordships will allow me to refer at this moment, to provide that the twenty thousand shall be calculated to the nearest thousand. Your Lordships may remember that as this Bill came to this House, only county boroughs were 636 to retain their quarter sessions. After some discussion on Second Reading, and later on Committee stage, it was decided that the boroughs mentioned in the Second Schedule should continue as there set out to have respectively either their commissions of the peace, or their commissions of the peace and their courts of quarter session. On the last occasion when we discussed this Bill I had down an Amendment to retain the recorders of every non-county borough with a population above 10,000.
§ Although I was perfectly prepared that those boroughs should give up their commissions of the peace, there was a certain judicial view against me—if I may so refer to it—as expressed by the noble and learned Lords, the Lord Chief Justice and Lord Roche. Eventually I did not ask the House to divide and we left the matter over until now. Instead of our having what would have been, I agree, an unusual provision, to allow for appeals from a county petty sessional division to be taken to a recorder and not to the county court of quarter sessions (of which of course, these magistrates would be a part) and for indictable offences from these petty sessional divisions although they would not have had a separate commission of the peace to go also to the recorder—which would have been a novel way of administering justice, though I think it would have been quite workable—I have now put down an Amendment on the lines of one originally proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Roche, and adopted by the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack. The only difference is that I am attempting here to reduce the number of twenty-five thousand to twenty thousand, thereby leaving in seven boroughs with their recorders.
§ Those boroughs your Lordships will find named in my Amendment to the Third Schedule. They consist, first, of Bridgwater, where a considerable amount of work has been done, and, second, of Deal. As your Lordships know there is great pressure of work from the whole of Kent on the Kent Quarter Sessions, so the county does not want to see the Deal court to go. Next, come Grantham and Newark, and then Penzance. Penzance comes in because the figure of twenty-thousand is taken to the nearest thousand. It is, I believe, to the convenience of people in that far end of 637 Cornwall that there should still be a recorder sitting there and that cases should not have to go inevitably to Bodmin quarter sessions. After Penzance comes Pontefract where a considerable amount of work is done, and then comes Windsor which appropriately comes after Winchester, about which we have heard so much in your Lordships' House. I think your Lordships will agree that it is good that Windsor, that Royal city, should be able also to preserve its recordership. My main reason for this struggle to retain these recorders is that I believe that unless we keep a considerable number of them there will be too much pressure on the ordinary courts of county quarter sessions. Also they are good training grounds and starting places for future Judges of the King's Bench Division. I hope that now we have found a compromise figure, in between what has previously been proposed, your Lordships may be able to see your way to accept this Amendment, and as regards this vital part of the Bill we may send this measure to another place with the complete agreement of your Lordships. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 26, leave out ("twenty-five") and insert ("twenty").—(Lord Llewellin.)
§ LORD SCHUSTERMy Lords, I do not want to delay the proceedings in your Lordships' House any longer than I can help, and I am certainly not going to argue the merits of this question any further. I wish only to congratulate my noble friend Lord Llewellin on having produced an Amendment which is satisfactory at least to those with whom he has been acting in this matter, and which is, I understand, likely to be accepted by His Majesty's Government. If that is the case, I wish to thank them also for accepting it. It is, in the truest sense of the word, a compromise. I still think that twenty-five thousand is the better figure because that is the figure which the Roche Committee recommended. But there is no magic about the figure twenty-five thousand; twenty thousand is a reasonable figure and, so far as I personally am concerned, I accept it ex anima. I am asked by the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chief Justice, who is unfortunately unable to be here to-day because he has to attend to his judicial duties, to say that he also accepts 638 it and sees some advantages in it as against the previous proposal. There are advantages no doubt.
§ LORD ROCHESTERMy Lords, as I took part in our last discussion on this question and sought to include a figure of twenty thousand instead of twenty-five thousand in order that every place that the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, has mentioned might be included, I should be very glad if the Government could see their way to accept tie Amendment.
§ LORD ROCHEMy Lords, I desire only to say that I have no completely rigid devotion to the Report of the Committee over which I had the honour to preside, nor do I at all resent this alteration. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, on having found a reasonable middle course, and I, too, hope that the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor will feel able to accept it. On the one hand it takes note of a very natural desire not to have too many—as there were before—of these minor jurisdictions and minor commissions of the peace, and on the other it seems to me to do something which is really important—that is, to act in due relief of county quarter sessions. If your Lordships will believe me—and as many of you as are members of the benches you do not need me to tell you this—many of these courts are greatly overworked at the present time, not only by reason of their judicial work, but also, because of the multiplicity of affairs in the county with which they have to deal, and if we overburden them any more they will break down. For these reasons I support the Amendment.
THE LORD BISHOP OF TRUROMy Lords, on behalf of Penzance I should like to say a word of appreciation of this suggestion. There are special reasons for difficulties in that area. For one thing, it is a point of contact with the Isles of Scilly, five inhabited islands thirty-five miles away over stormy seas, and it would be a great convenience to the whole area if this Amendment were accepted, as I hope it will be, by the Government. We have all heard of the "Pirates of Penzance," and perhaps they will be conveniently dealt with if the Amendment is accepted.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, this is a compromise proposal, but 639 it is none the worse for that. That applies to the whole Bill. We have been compromising, and by give and take we have managed to make a Bill which commands the highest possible measure of good will among all Parties. I have much pleasure in accepting the Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD LLEWELLINMy Lords, I beg to move the next Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 24, at end insert ("and the population at the end of June nineteen hundred and forty-eight shall be ascertained to the nearest thousand.")—(Lord Llewellin.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 18 [Appointment and conditions of service of justices' clerks]:
§ LORD LLEWELLINhad given notice of an Amendment to subsection (2). The noble Lord said: My Lords, the Amendment I put down on the Order Paper is met by another standing in the name of the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor. My position is met except for a point on compensation, but as the noble and learned Viscount's Amendment deals with the main points raised during the previous stages, I will not move my Amendment:
§ Clause 21 [Superannuation of justices' clerks and their staffs]:
§
THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved in subsection (6) after "adaptations" to insert
(including any increase in the age of compulsory retirement).
The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, Clause 21 (2) of this Bill applies the Local Government Superannuation Act of 1937. Under that Act a servant of a local authority retires compulsorily at the age of 65, subject to the power of the authority to extend his service indefinitely year after year, though his pension rights cannot be affected by such an extension and can be based only on the salary which he has received up to the age of 65. Since justices' clerks do not achieve their position at an early age, as may well be the case with the servant of a local authority, it is felt that the above provision should be altered and that we should extend the compulsory retirement age for justices' clerks from 65 to 70, except in those cases where
640
justices' clerks have already completed 40 years' pensionable service before the age of 70. Several Amendments which follow also deal with this point. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 15, after ("adaptations") insert ("(including any increase in the age of compulsory retirement)").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 22 [Existing and former justices' clerks, etc.]:
§
THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after subsection (1) to insert:
(2) The salary payable under the said section eighteen to a justices' clerk to whom the foregoing subsection applies shall he fixed with due regard to any additional duties imposed on him as justices' clerk by section twenty of this Act and to any remuneration formerly payable in respect of the duties so imposed on him.
The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment meets a point raised by several of your Lordships in earlier stages in the Bill, and I hope that it carries out your wishes. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 45, at end insert the said subsection.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
THE MARQUESS OF EXETERMy Lords, on Committee stage I moved an Amendment of a similar character, but it contained the word "fees," which unfortunately the noble and learned Viscount did not like, and the Amendment was not accepted. The present Amendment carries out what I had in mind, and I thank the noble and learned Viscount.
§ LORD SCHUSTERMy Lords, I do not wish to introduce a note of controversy into this assembly, but I am not satisfied that this Amendment completely covers the points we raised. It is true that it covers the case where, by reason of this measure, the collecting officer's duties are for the first time imposed on the justices' clerk; but what we also desire to cover is the case of the justices' clerk already acting as a collecting officer who will in future lose the fees hitherto received in that regard. We wanted something inserted, not necessarily in arithmetical proportion, which takes into account the fees which will be lost. Surely, that is just. It is a highly technical point and I do not want to waste 641 time, but I am sure the noble and learned Viscount will apprehend the position.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I think we have met that point by the words,
with due regard … to any remuneration formerly payable in respect of the duties so imposed on him.That is to say, if a justices' clerk used to collect and receive fees for collecting, in fixing his new salary we must have regard to the fact that he used to collect and used to receive fees, and that he loses them under the new régime.
§ LORD SCHUSTERMy Lords, if the noble and learned Viscount is satisfied, it is not for me to argue a point of construction. I have no more to say.
§ LORD ROCHEMy Lords, I venture to suggest that the omission of two words might make this clear. Up to now, the position has been that there was no necessary connection between collecting officers and justices' clerks. Some justices' clerks were collecting officers as well, and some were not; and both cases have to be covered. I think the difficulty would be met by leaving out the words "him as" and the final words "on him." That would make it clear that, whether the justices' clerk was collecting officer before or whether he was not, he is in future to he paid as a justices' clerk for collecting officer's duties.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, as this Bill is going to another place, may I suggest that I convey these remarks to my right honourable and learned friend the Attorney-General and he will look at them and, if necessary, put the matter right?
§ LORD SCHUSTERMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Viscount. I am sure the intention of the Government is the same as our own, and I do not like to argue with the noble and learned Viscount a point of construction.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, this Amendment is consequential. Under the Birmingham local Acts, the staff of the clerk to the justices are employed by the justices, and there may be similar provisions in other local Acts. 642 The effect of the Amendment is that such employment is deemed to be employment by the justices' clerk for the purposes of this clause.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 22, line 26, at end insert ("by any justices or").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 26 [Application of fines and fees, and payment of expenses of courts]:
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in paragraph (c) of subsection (10) to leave out all words after "London" and insert "and a clerk of special sessions." The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, under the Staffordshire Stipendiary Acts—which, I may say, have given me a lot of trouble recently—an officer named a clerk of accounts is appointed, and it is his main function to see that lines and fees received in the stipendiary court are paid over to the commissioners established under those Acts. That duty is superseded by the provisions of this clause, which require the clerk of the stipendiary to pay to the Secretary of State all fines and fees, and it has been agreed with the commissioners for the Staffordshire stipendiary districts that the office of clerk of accounts shall be abolished and the provisions relating, to this officer it the local Acts repealed. In both of the Staffordshire areas, in fact, the officer is at present a member of the staff of the clerk to the stipendiary, and therefore no question of loss of office arises. Accordingly, this Amendment provides for the omission from this subsection of the reference to the clerk of accounts. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moves—
Page 27, line 37, leave out from ("London ") to end of line 39 and insert ("and a clerk of special sessions;").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ 3.0 p.m.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after Clause 26, to insert the following new clause:
§ Making good defaults of justices' clerks.
§ "—(1) Where a justices' clerk does not duly pay to the Secretary of State or other person entitled thereto any sums received by him by reason of his office (other than sums received on account of his salary or expenses as justices' clerk), or a person employed to assist a justices' clerk does not duly pay to the clerk or some person or his behalf any sums received in the course of that employment, 643 the responsible authority shall pay the amount of those sums to the Secretary of State or other person entitled to receive them from the clerk.
§ (2) A county or borough council shall have the same power under subsection (2) of section one hundred and nineteen of the Local Government Act, 1933 (or in the case of the London County Council subsection (2) of section eighty-six of the London Government Act, 1939), to take security with respect to the sums referred to in the foregoing subsection as they have with respect to money belonging to the council which is entrusted to the custody or control of a person not employed by them.
§ (3) The reference in subsection (2) of the last foregoing section to the functions of county and borough councils under this Part of this Act shall include the taking of security by virtue of the last foregoing subsection, but not the making of payments under subsection (1) of this section.
§ (4) In this section the expression 'justices' clerk' has the same meaning as in the last foregoing section, and references to the responsible authority shall, in relation to sums payable to a clerk by reason of any office, be taken as references to the responsible authority within the meaning of that section who pay his salary in that office or (if he receives a single salary for that and some other office) who bear the part of his salary attributable to that office."
§ The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, the Roche Committee in paragraph 201 of their Report recommended that it should be a statutory obligation on the authorities concerned to effect guarantee policies in respect of justices' clerks and their assistants, to cover the possibility of defalcations by the clerks or their assistants. The effect of this clause is to put on the local authority the obligation of making good any such defalcations; subsection (2) gives the local authority power to affect guarantee policies in respect of this risk. A specific provision to enable local authorities to do this is required, because the clerk and his staff are not the employees of the local authority. Subsection (3) of the new clause provides that the cost of premiums for this insurance will be a charge upon the pool of fines and fees, but that the amount which the local authorities have to pay to meet any defalcations will not: that is to say, the local authority can either insure, in which case the cost of the premiums will be a charge against the pool, or it can refrain from insuring and beam the risk itself, in which case any loss must be met out of its own funds without any assistance from the pod I hope your Lordships will think this is 644 a satisfactory arrangement. So far as local authorities are concerned, I confess that I am rather proud at having been able to get the Treasury to agree that the costs of the premium should come out of the pool. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
After Clause 26, insert the said new clause. —(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 27:
§ Appointments outside London
§ (3) Any appointment of a stipendiary magistrate under this section shall be of a person recommended to His Majesty by the Lord Chancellor.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I have found a curious ambiguity and difference of opinion about the ways in which stipendiary magistrates, either metropolitan or in the country, may be removed. Accordingly, it is here stated plainly that they shall not be removed from office except on the Lord Chancellor's recommendation. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 35, at end insert ("and a stipendiary magistrate appointed under this section shall not be removed from office except on the Lord Chancellor's recommendation"). —(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ VISCOUNT SIMONMy Lords, perhaps I may say a word on this matter, because, although I am sure the Amendment will be agreed on all sides, the Lord Chancellor is proposing to include in the Bill the assertion of a very important principle. It is curious that there should have been a doubt whether a stipendiary magistrate could be removed otherwise than by the method now proposed. In practice, our whole judicial system, from top to bottom, depends upon the assumption that the man who is discharging a judicial function is not to suffer at the hands of the Executive by removal because the Executive do not like what he does. That is fundamental. Only the other day the Lord Chancellor was good enough to answer a Question that I put to him my saying that a Colonial judge discharges his duty as a judge quite independently of the Executive.
At the same time, different kinds of judicial persons may be removed from office in certain circumstances in different ways. As everybody knows, a High Court 645 judge holds office during good behaviour, but he may be removed by an Address to the Crown by both Houses of Parliament. I understand that to mean that if he does misbehave himself he can be removed, subject to proceedings being taken in the appropriate way which will raise the question whether he has misbehaved himself. The High Court judge, therefore, has a remarkable security of tenure. There are special provisions dealing with the circumstances in which a county court judge may he removed. It is true that in the case of the ordinary justice of the peace the Lord Chancellor has an absolute discretion to remove a justice of the peace from the commission. But no Lord Chancellor would ever dream of doing so unless there were what he, at least, felt to be good ground for doing it; and he would not do it without communicating with the individual—he would not remove him lightheartedly.
I therefore think it a matter of considerable importance, in the interests of our judicial system, that the Lord Chancellor should have removed any doubt there was about the way in which stipendiary magistrates might be removed. I am glad he has found this opportunity of affirming what I am sure is the true principle in this country—absolutely opposed to the situation as it used to be in Nazi Germany and elsewhere—that once a man has been entrusted with a judicial function he can discharge that function without fear of the Executive, and can do his duty realising that he has, in practice and in fact, a security of tenure which I feel is one of the foundations of our British Constitution.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I am obliged to the noble and learned Viscount for what he has said. I would say only that, without qualification, I entirely agree with him.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 21, after ("necessary") insert ("by statutory instrument ").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
646§ Clause 28 [Local Act stipendiaries]:
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, this is a further drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 16, after ("consequential") insert ("and others").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 29 [Appointments under previous Acts]:
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORThe effect of the next Amendment is to enable the Chancellor of the Duchy of La-caster to continue to be responsible, as he is at present, for recommending to the King the person to be appointed as stipendiary magistrate for Salford. Your Lordships will remember that we agreed to leave the Chancellor of the Duchy's power intact. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 34, after the second ("Act") insert ("except the Manchester Division and Borough of Salford (Stipendiary Justices) Act, 1878").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, this Amendment carries out something which we discussed just now. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 35, at end insert ("and a stipendiary magistrate appointed under any Act so passed shall hold office during His Majesty's pleasure but shall nor be removed from office except on the recommendation of the Lord Chancellor or, in the case of a magistrate appointed under the said Act of 1878, the recommendation of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 33 [Remuneration of deputies]:
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, this is a drafting Amendment which makes similar provision as regards the payment of the salary of a deputy for a stipendiary magistrate for a joint district as is made in Clause 27 (5) in regard to the payment of the salary of the stipendiary himself. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 34, line 28, at end insert—
(3) Where a stipendiary magistrate has been appointed for a joint district within the meaning of section twenty-seven of this Act, each of the authorities paying his salary in
647
that office shall he liable under the last foregoing subsection for the remuneration of the magistrates' deputy, but it shall be borne by them in the shares agreed or last agreed for the magistrate's salary."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 37 [Transfer to Lord Chancellor of certain functions with respect to recorders]:
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, this is a slightly new point which has been overlooked. This Amendment and that next but one at page 36, line 9, are moved for the purpose of consistency with the provisions now in the Bill in regard to the appointment of recorders on the recommendation of the Lord Chancellor. The first Amendment provides that the appointment of a paid chairman or deputy-chairman for the County of London Quarter Sessions shall also be on the recommendation of the Lord Chancellor; and the second provides that the Lord Chancellor, and not the Secretary of State, shall be the authority as regards the appointment of persons to act temporarily in either of these two offices. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 33, at end insert ("and any appointment of a paid chairman or deputy chairman of the quarter sessions for the county of London under section forty-two of the Local Government Act, 1888,").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ LORD LLEWELLINMy Lords, I would like to ask what happens about Middlesex. Is it the fact that the appointments in Middlesex are already on the recommendation of the Lord Chancellor?
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that that is so.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 36, line 9, at end insert—
("() In section two of the Quarter Sessions (London) Act, 1896 (which relates to the appointment of persons to act temporarily in the office of paid chairman or deputy chairman of the quarter sessions for the county of London), references to the Lord Chancellor shall be substituted for the references to the Secretary of State.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, this is a drafting Amendment 648 which includes among the various functions of the Lord Chancellor under this clause in relation to recorders the function of approving the appointment of an assistant recorder under Section 168 of the Municipal Corporations Act, 1882, which gives power for an assistant recorder to be appointed in order to form a second court where the quarter sessions are likely to last more than three days. The approval under the section as it stands must be given by the Secretary of State. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 35, line 35, at end insert—
("(2) The Lord Chancellor, instead of the Secretary of State, shall give the approval required by subsection (6) of section one hundred and sixty-eight of the Municipal Corporations Act, 1882, in the case of a barrister to he appointed assistant recorder under that section, but any such approval given by the Secretary of State before the coming into force of this subsection shall have effect as if given by the Lord Chancellor.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 40 [Compensation for loss of office]:
§ 3.10 p.m.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. The words in the subsection are no longer necessary, owing to the proposals we are making in regard to Clause 44. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 37, line 40, leave out subsection (6).—(Lord Shepherd.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 41 [Expenses and payments into Exchequer]:
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I do not yet know whether the passing of this Bill will impose any extra expenses or necessitate extra staff being taken on, but as a guard against that risk and contingency these words have been inserted. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 37, line 42, after ("the") insert ("Lord Chancellor or").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 44 [Citation, repeal and extent]:
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, this Amendment is drafting. Its purpose is to make clear the clauses of the Bill which apply to Scotland. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 40, line 20, leave out from ("to") to end of line 26 and insert ("England and Wales only except that the following provisions shall extend to Scotland, videlicet:—
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Second Schedule [Provisions consequential on Changes in Commission of the Peace]:
§ The LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, the jurisdiction of quarter sessions of a Cinque Port borough extends to any corporate member of the Cinque Port which has not itself a separate court of quarter sessions. Faversham is a corporate member of the Cinque Port of Dover and loses its court of quarter sessions under the Bill. If Faversham ceases to have a quarter sessions court it would come under the control of the coroner of Dover, and we have taken steps to avoid that. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 44, line 45, at end insert—
("(4) The abolition by this Act of the court of quarter sessions of Faversham shall not extend to Faversham the jurisdiction, powers or authority of the coroner of Dover.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Lord MERTHYRMy Lords, I have put down a manuscript Amendment this morning, for which I apologise because it is so late. I think it is little more than drafting and is non-controversial. If your Lordships will look at page 45, line 35, you will see there the names of four boroughs which will lose their commission of the peace, but each of which is a county of a city or a town. If your Lordships will look at line 40 you will see it is stated:
… and in the case of those boroughs any jurisdiction conferred by the said Act on the recorder of the borough may be exercised by the court of quarter sessions for the said county.650 It is a fact that in one of those four cases—namely, Haverfordwest—there is no recorder, and it is not so much a borough losing its commission as a county losing its commission. I believe it to be the only county which loses its commission under this Bill. It has no recorder and no borough quarter sessions, but it has instead a county quarter sessions for the town alone. Therefore, I propose to put in before the word "borough" at the end of line 41, the words "or court of quarter sessions" in order to put that small matter right. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 45, line 41, after ("recorder") insert ("or court of quarter sessions").—(Lord Merthyr.)
§ The LORD CHANCELLORHaverfordwest is a very peculiar place. I have looked at it, and I have come to the conclusion that the noble Lord's Amendment is correct.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Third Schedule [Non-County Boroughs retaining Commissions of Peace]:
§ Lord LLEWELLINMy Lords, the Amendments to this Schedule are consequential, and I beg to move.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 50, line 36, column 1, at beginning insert—
§ (" Bridgwater Deal")
§ Page 50, line 37. column 1, after ("Folkestone") insert—
§ ("Grantham")
§ Page 50, line 38 column 2, after ("Margate") insert—
§ ("Newark Penzance Pontefract")
§ Page 50, line 39, column 3, after ("Winchester") insert—
§ ("Windsor").—(Lord Llewellin.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ Fourth Schedule [Constitution, etc., of Magistrates' Courts Committees]:
§ The LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, it occurred to us that it is just possible that a custos rotulorum who is to be a member of the magistrates' courts committee might not be a magistrate within the meaning of the Act, because a magistrate within the meaning of the Act is a magistrate on the active list and not on the supplemental list, and if by 651 any chance a custos was on the supplemental list, he would not be able to sit. It is to guard against that contingency that we put in these words. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 44, at beginning insert ("Subject to the next following subparagraph.").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORThis Amendment is to meet a suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, at the last moment, when I had not had time to consider it. I said that I would look at it and would consider it further. I have considered it further, and this Amendment is to give effect to the proposals which he made. It might be that the chairman of quarter sessions would not be willing or would not be suitable to sit, in which case he would probably have some deputy officer. This Amendment makes provision for that. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 51, line 3, at end insert—
("(3) The chairman of the court of quarter sessions for a county or a quarter sessions division of a county shall by virtue of his office be a member of the magistrates' courts committee acting for the county or division:
Provided that, if the chairman is unwilling to be a member, the deputy chairman or, if there are two or more deputy chairmen, one of them nominated by the chairman shall, if willing, be a member in the place of the chairman.").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ LORD LLEWELLINI am much obliged to the noble and learned Viscount. I think it will strengthen the magistrates' courts committee to have sitting on it the chairman of quarter sessions or, in his absence, the deputy chairman. I am glad the deputy chairman has been included, because in some cases the chairmanships of courts of quarter sessions are held by judges of the High Court, who can probably spare only sufficient time to do the actual work of the courts. In that case it is well worth while that the deputy should be able to sit. I believe that in many of these cases, if the magistrates' courts committee does not appoint the custos as its chairman, it will probably seek a chairman among the men elected as chairmen of quarter sessions. This Amendment provides a valuable addition to the set-up of the magistrates' courts 652 committee, and I am obliged to the Lord Chancellor for adopting it.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, with your Lordships' permission I will take the next three Amendments together. In view of the Amendment just made, these Amendments become consequential. We have now two types of ex-officio members, either the chairman of quarter sessions or the custos. Accordingly, we must leave out "custos" and insert "ex-officio members." I beg to move.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 51, line 6, leave out ("custos") and insert ("ex-officio members ").
§ Page 51, line 15, leave out ("custos") and insert ("ex-officio members").
§ Page 51, line 20, leave out ("custos of") and insert ("ex-officio members from").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ Fifth Schedule [Modifications of Local Government superannuation Act, 1937, in relation to Justices' Clerks and their Staff]:
§ 3.19 p.m.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, this Amendment deals with a point that I raised before, to raise the age of compulsory retirement from 65—which is the age under the Local Government Act—to such further age, not exceeding 70, as will enable the justices' clerk to complete his forty years' service. We discussed the matter on a previous Amendment, and all I need do now is formally to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 54, line 11, at end insert—
("4.—(1) Where a justices' clerk on attaining the age of sixty-five years has not completed forty years' service, then (in relation to his employment as justices' clerk) for any reference to that age in the 1937 Act, except in subsection (1) of section eight (which relates to eligibility for pension whether on voluntary or compulsory retirement), there shall be substituted a reference to the age of seventy or the age at which he completes forty years' service, whichever is the earlier.
(2) For the purposes of this paragraph, one half only of any non-contributing service shall he taken into account.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ VISCOUNT TEMPLEWOODMy Lords. I should like to make one observation on this Amendment. I do not attach the same importance to age as do a 653 great many members of this House, but I accept the proposal of the Lord Chancellor. I would, however, ask him, in conjunction with the Home Secretary, to take particular care that when they notify magistrates who reach the age fixed for their retirement they send them polite letters and not abrupt ultimatums. I have had brought to my attention in the last two days an ultimatum which was sent to one of the most efficient chairmen of juvenile committees in London, a man who had devoted ten years of his life to the work of juvenile courts, and a man greatly respected by other chairmen and his colleagues. Suddenly, after leaving this court one day, he received the next morning a circular from the Home Office saying that he had been dismissed. It may be necessary in the public interest to reduce the ages of these chairmen and other members, particularly of juvenile courts; but I do ask the noble and learned Viscount, in conjunction with his colleague the Home Secretary, to see that when it is necessary to tell one of these magistrates that the time has come for him to retire it should be done in a polite manner and that the opportunity should be taken of thanking him for the many years of service he has given.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, the motto of the College at which my noble friend and I were educated was:
Manners makyth man,and the longer I live the more I believe that to be true. A little courtesy goes a long way and costs nothing; and it makes all the difference. I will do all I can to see that effect is given to the noble Lord's suggestion.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. If it were not made the result would be that those justices' clerks or employees who become superannuable in consequence of the Bill, and who are over the age of compulsory retirement when the Bill comes into force, would have their pension assessed on the five years immediately preceding their attaining the age of sixty-five. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 55, line 8, at end insert—
("(2) In relation to an existing clerk or employee who immediately before the coming
654
into force of section eighteen of this Act has attained the age of sixty-five years and is not a contributory employee by virtue of section twenty of the 1937 Act, subsection (5) of section eight of that Act (which relates to the remuneration to be taken into account in fixing the rate of pension) shall have effect with the following modifications:
§ On question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, this Amendment is consequential on the Amendment at page 54, line 11, which raises the age of compulsory retirement of justices' clerks. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 55, line 27, after ("that") insert—
("paragraph [i] of this Schedule shall apply to the reference in this sub-paragraph to the age of sixty-five years as it applies to references to that age in the 1937 Act (except subsection (1) of section eight); and").(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in paragraph 12, after sub-paragraph (2) to insert:
(3) Where a person is entitled to reckon any period as service by virtue only of proviso (i) to sub-paragraph (1) of this paragraph, he shall be entitled to reckon that period as contributing service if—
and, where he does so, the sum shall he deemed to be contributions in respect of that period.
§ The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment is also consequential upon theft at page 54, line 11, which raises the age of compulsory retirement of justices' clerks, Its effect is that a clerk already serving who is over 65, when the provisions of this schedule apply to him, and who has thus ceased to make contributions in respect of superannuation, can pay contributions 655 for the years between age 65 and the time when Clause 18 comes into force so as to enable this service to count as contributory service. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 55, line 32, at end insert the said subparagraph.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Sixth Schedule [Consequential provisions as to Local Act Stipendiaries]:
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, this is a drafting Amendment which is intended to deal with the possibility that a non-county borough which is only partly within a stipendiary magistrate's district—for instance, Newcastle-under-Lyme, part of which lies within the Potteries stipendiary's district—may in future have a separate magistrate's courts committee and, in consequence, exclusive jurisdiction. The Amendment enables the stipendiary to continue to exercise jurisdiction in this part of his district. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 56, line 48, after ("situated") insert ("wholly or partly").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD CHORLEY moved, after paragraph 2 to insert:
§ ".—(1) A magistrate appointed under the Staffordshire Potteries Stipendiary Justice Acts, 1839 to 1895, or under the South Staffordshire Stipendiary Justice Act, 1899, may exercise his jurisdiction as a county justice though sitting in a county borough or a borough having a separate commission of the peace and magistrates' courts committee, and may exercise his jurisdiction as justice for any such borough though not sitting in that borough.
§ (2) The foregoing sub-paragraph shall apple to a county or borough justice taking the place of either of the said magistrates as it applies to the magistrate.
§ .—(1) Any provision of the Staffordshire Potteries Stipendiary Justice Acts, 1839 to 1895, or of the South Staffordshire Stipendiary Justice Act, 1899, as to a clerk of accounts appointed by the commissioners thereunder shall cease to have effect, and any functions which would apart from this provision be discharged by such a clerk shall be discharged instead by the clerk to the stipendiary magistrate.
§ (2) The amount of the salary to be paid to the clerk to the stipendiary magistrate under any of the said Acts shall, notwithstanding anything in those Acts, be such as may from time to time be determined by the commissioners with the approval of the Secretary of State:
656§ Provided that, until otherwise determined under this sub-paragraph, a clerk in office at the coming into force thereof shall continue to receive the salary to which he is then entitled.
§ (3) The clerk to the stipendiary magistrate under any of the said Acts shall be deemed, for the purposes of the Local Government (Superannuation) Act, 1937, to be employed in that office by the commissioners paying his salary, and in the case of a clerk in office at the coming into force of this sub-paragraph to have been so employed since his appointment to that office, and paragraph [4] of the Fifth Schedule to this Act shall apply to the clerk to any such magistrate as it applies to a justices' clerk.
§ .—(1) If at any time the area in which the stipendiary magistrate under the Staffordshire Potteries Stipendiary Justice Acts. 1839 to 1895, or the South Staffordshire Stipendiary Justice Act, 1899, has jurisdiction (so far as not included in a county borough or borough having a separate commission of the peace and magistrates' courts committee) consists of one or more petty sessional divisions of the county, of Stafford, and the commissioners agree to the making of an order under this subparagraph, the Secretary of State may by statutory instrument make an order directing that the provisions of the said Acts or Act, as the case may be, so far as they relate to a clerk to the stipendiary magistrate shall cease to have effect, and the order may include provision for the payment to any person of compensation for loss of office or employment or loss or diminution of emoluments in consequence of the order and for any other consequential or transitional matters and any such provision may be varied or revoked by a subsequent order made in the same manner.
§ (2) If it appears to the Secretary of State that the area within which either of the magistrates referred to in the foregoing subparagraph has jurisdiction can conveniently be adjusted so as to enable an order to be made under that sub-paragraph, and the commissioners agree to the making of an order under this sub-paragraph, the Secretary of State may by statutory instrument make an order adjusting the boundaries of that area accordingly.
§ (3) If after the making of an order under sub-paragraph (1) of this paragraph with respect to the clerk to either of the said magistrates any alteration is made under the Acts referred to in that sub-paragraph in the area in which the magistrate has jurisdiction, and as the result of the alteration that area (so far as not included in a county borough or borough having a separate commission of the peace and magistrates' courts committee) does not consist of one or more petty sessional divisions of the county of Stafford, the Secretary of State shall by statutory instrument make an order constituting the area (so far as not included as aforesaid) a petty sessional division or divisions of that county and making consequential provisions as to the remainder of the county, and subsections (4), (6) and (7) of section seventeen of this Act shall apply as if the order were an order under that section.
§ .—(1) If the commissioners under the South Staffordshire Stipendiary Justice Act, 1899, pass a statutory resolution under the 657 Local Government Superannuation Act, 1937, specifying as a contributory employee a person holding at the coming into force of this paragraph any of the posts designated or purporting to have been designated by or under the admission agreement with Wolverhampton, then with the consent of that person and of the Wolverhampton borough council the resolution may direct that as respects that person it shall be deemed to have had effect at all times since the appointed day within the meaning of the said Act of 1937 at which he held any such post.
§ (2) The reference in the foregoing subparagraph to the admission agreement with Wolverhampton refers to the admission agreement between the said commissioners and the said council dated the seventh day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-seven (being an agreement which was entered into under the Local Government and other Officers' Superannuation Act, 1922, and became inoperative under the Local Government Superannuation Act, 1937)."
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, these rather complicated-looking provisions are consequential on some of the earlier Amendments which your Lordships have accepted. I beg to move.
| ("13 & 14 Geo. 5. c. 16 | The Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act, 1923. | In section seventy-six, the words 'a member of a fishery board or'")—(The Lord Chancellor) |
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, this repeal which is already in Part III of this Schedule, is being trans-
| ("23 & 24 Geo. 5. c. 51.) | The Government Act,1933. | In section eighteen in subsection (7) the words from the first 'and' to 'ceases to be mayor' and in subsection (8) the words 'in addition'") |
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, the next three Amendments are consequential. Perhaps I may be allowed to take them together. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 61, line 54, column 3, at beginning insert ("In section seven, the words from 'or sum' where first occurring to or sum' where next occurring;").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 65, line 20, column 3, leave out from beginning to ("section") in line 24 and insert ("Section fifteen;").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
658
§
Amendment moved—
Page 57, line 12, at end insert the said new paragraphs.—(Lord Chorley.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I beg to move this Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 57, line 37, after("situated") insert the said new paragraphs.—(Lord Chotley.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I beg to move this Admendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 57, line 44, after ("shall") insert ("by statutory instrument").—(The Lord chancellor)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to Seventh Schedule [Repeals]:
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, this repeal is consequential upon the new clause which we discussed earlier. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§ Page 58, line38, at end insert—
§ ferred by this Amendment to part I of the Schedule. The repeal is consequential on part I of the Act. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§ Page 58, line40, at end insert—
§ Amendment moved—
§ Page 68, line 45, column 3, at end insert ("in section eleven, the words from 'by the' to 'or' where next occurring and the word 'other' ").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, this is a consequential Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 69, line 5, column 3, leave out from ("in") to ("twenty-seven") in line 10 and insert ("subsection (3) of section seventeen the words from ' of four' to ' be paid'; sections nineteen and twenty; in section twenty-two the words 'and clerk of accounts'; in section twenty-three the words 'or' the clerk of
659
accounts'; in section twenty-four the words 'clerk of accounts'; section").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, the repeal dealt with in this Amendment is being deleted because of the Amendments made in Committee on recommitment, which limit the prohibition in subsection (13) of Clause 18 to those justices' clerks who are appointed after the coming into force of the clause. I beg to move.
| ("20 & 21 Geo. 5. | The Manchester Corporation (General Powers) Act, 1930. | Section thirty-nine as respects any person who after the coming into force of section twenty-one of this Act is or serves the clerk to the justices")—(The Lord Chancellor.) |
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORThis repeal is being deleted from this Part of the Schedule because it is being inserted in Part I of the Schedule by the Amendment at page 58, line 40. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 71, line 18, column 3, leave out from ("eighteen") to ("subsection") in line 23.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
| ("8 & 9 Geo. 6.C.iv. | The Staffordshire Potteries Stipendiary Justice Act, 1945. | The whole Act"). |
§ —(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been dispensed with (pursuant to the Resolution of November 9):
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I now rise to move that this Bill be read a third time. It is very satisfactory to me to think that noble Lords on all sides of this House devoutly hope that another place, although the time is short, will find time to pass the Bill this Session. As with many a compromise Bill, there are few of us who can say that this measure is perfect in all respects; but I do not believe there is one who does not feel that the passing of the Bill will improve the administration of the law. The Bill goes to another place not in the least as a Party measure; it goes as a Bill to which all Parties have con-
§
Amendment moved—
Page 69, line 58, column 3, leave out from ("twenty-nine") to ("section") in line 5 on page 70.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, the repeal effected by this Amendment is consequential on the provisions of subsection (6) of Clause 21, giving power to the Minister of Health to modify local Act schemes. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§ Page 70, line 59, at end insert—
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, the provisions of the Staffordshire Potteries Stipendiary Justice Act. 1945, are being repealed because they modify provisions of the earlier Staffordshire Potteries Stipendiary Justice Acts which are already included in the Repeal Schedule. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§ Page 72, line 22, at end insert—
§ tributed, and contributed to the best of their ability.
§ I should like to say how grateful I am for the spirit in which your Lordships have helped me to try to perfect this Bill. I am not in the least ashamed to say that I have compromised on all sorts of matters. The important thing was to try to get the Bill through, and it is the earnest desire of all Parties and all sections of this House that it will at a very early stage find its place on the Statute Book. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.
§ Moved, That the Bill be now read 3ª.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ 3.30 p.m.
§ LORD LLEWELLINMy Lords, perhaps your Lordships will allow me at this stage to say that I very much hope that 661 we have dealt with this Bill with sufficient expedition to give time to another place to pass it, so that it may be placed on the Statute Book this year. I do not think any political question is involved in this matter. Although during the course of its passage through this House we may have arrived at some compromises, the one thing upon which none of us has compromised is that the administration of justice by these courts shall be competently, impartially and properly administered. That is the basis of the whole measure. It would be appropriate here, too, for somebody to say a word of appreciation to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Roche, and those who sat with him on his Committee, whose Report provided part of the foundation of this measure, and also to that much respected man whose death we still lament, the noble and learned Lord, Lord du Parcq, and those who sat with him on the Royal Commission. It is largely upon their work that this measure is based. It was work which was well done, and I hope that that will be reflected in the operation of the Bill when it becomes law. I hope, too, that that work will not be wasted because of insufficient time to get the Bill on the Statute Book before this Session ends.
There is one other point to which I might appropriately refer on Third Reading. This Bill will be brought into law by Order in Council, and that Order in Council can provide for the different Parts of the Bill to be brought into operation at different times. I suggest to the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor, that that matter will have to be carefully watched, because the jurisdiction of some recorders will be abolished by this measure. If the Order in Council came into force while a recorder was sitting and trying cases, there might he some extraordinary results. A jury might have convicted a man of some crime, and before the recorder had time to pass sentence the axe might have fallen on the recorder himself. I do not know what the result in law would be. The man certainly would have been convicted, and yet would not have been sentenced. 662 Whoever is responsible for these Orders in Council must be careful to see that no recorder is actually holding his quarter sessions when the particular Order is made.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORNo condemned recorder.
§ LORD LLEWELLINI agree—no condemned recorder. I am sure we are obliged to the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor for the way in which he has conducted the passage of this Bill through this House, and we all join in wishing it a speedy passage through another place. I am of opinion that we shall be able to look back upon this measure as one of the pieces of good work that this House has performed during the present Parliament.
§ 3.35 p.m.
§ LORD SCHUSTERMy Lords, I should like to speak for two or three minutes, even at this late stage of the Bill, mainly to repair an earlier omission of mine. I was specially charged by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goddard, when the Lord Chancellor moved the second Amendment on the Marshalled List, to offer him his thanks and gratitude for having considered the matter and inserted the Amendment, but it passed so quickly that it escaped my attention, and I did not do so. I now do it. Now that I am on my feet, and having myself worked on the Roche Committee, who began their work many years ago, I should like to thank the Lord Chancellor for having brought the Bill to this House. I am delighted to see it passed and I hope to see it welcomed in another glace. For my own part, it has a disastrous effect upon me as it removes me from my office as a justice of the peace. To me that is a matter of great regret, although perhaps it is not so to anybody else in Dorchester. However, I have to put up with that. I beg to congratulate the Lord Chancellor and wish the Bill success.
§ On Question, Bill read 3a. An Amendment (privilege) male: Bill passed and sent to the Commons.