§ 5.20 p.m.
§ Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT)My Lords, I rise to move that this Bill be now read a second time. I hope that your Lordships have found the drafting of this Bill simple. I confess that a great deal of trouble has been taken about the drafting, and I think it illustrates the saying which I have often heard, that it takes much longer to draft a thing simply than it does to draft it in a complex form. I think I can claim that the drafting of this Bill is simple and that everyone can understand it.
The Bill arises, of course, out of the decision of India which was dealt with at the recent meeting of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers. I would like, by way of introduction, just to remind your Lordships of part of the Resolution at that conference:
The Government of India have informed the other Governments of the Commonwealth of the intention of the Indian people that, under the new Constitution which is about to be adopted, India shall become a sovereign independent republic.The Government of India have, however, declared and affirmed India's desire to continue her full membership of the Commonwealth of Nations, and her acceptance of the King as a symbol of the free association of its independent, free nations and, as such, the head of the Commonwealth.The Governments of the other countries of the Commonwealth, the bases of whose membership of the Commonwealth is not hereby changed, accept and recognise India's continuing membership in accordance with the terms of this declaration.1450 The Commonwealth can never claim, I think, to have been a wholly logical association of States. But the hallmark of the Commonwealth which has distinguished it from any other association of States in the history of the world is that there is and always has been complete freedom extending to all its members. It is idle to pretend that some of us do not regret the formation of an Indian Republic. Yet we all recognise India's right to work out her own salvation on whatever lines seem to her best to accord with her history and her traditions and hopes for the future.The new Constitution is to come into force in January, and I have had to consider the legal implications which are involved. I had thought what clear and satisfactory answers I could give to some of the questions which might be put to me. What, for instance, it might be said, would be the position of Lord Sinha, whom we all rejoice to have amongst us as a member of this House; what would be the position of Sir Madhavan Nair, who for so many years has given us most valuable assistance in ihe Privy Council? Again, what would be the position of all those people who, with the necessary technical qualifications and degrees, are carrying on their professions in this country? What would be the position in regard to Customs and Preferences between the two countries, and complicated questions relating to British ships and the like? To all those questions it would have been very difficult to accord clear and convincing answers. We might have found ourselves involved in a series of debates in which we were dealing with comparatively small, trumpery points which might have given rise to some irritation, when really we are here dealing with something which is fundamentally big and, I hope, not to be disturbed by those small considerations. It was to clear away those difficulties that the present Bill has been introduced.
I should make it clear to your Lordships that I regard it as almost certain that in the future India will pass her own legislation dealing with citizenship. I fully contemplate that when she does pass that legislation, it will be necessary for us in our turn to look at ours and, perhaps, produce legislation of our own arising out of her legislation. These matters are for the future, but, for the 1451 present, I think we are plainly right in asserting by this Bill that, notwithstanding the change due to the formation of a Republic, the legal position will be preserved in relation to India and in relation to persons and things belonging to or connected with India. This Bill, when it passes into law, will enact that everything in law is to remain as it would have been if the change had not been made. So it treats this change as being a matter of form rather than a matter of substance. It is very satisfactory to me to be able to record that this Bill received unanimous support and welcome in another place. I feel sure that your Lordships, too, will give it a welcome, for I am certain that whatever hankerings after the past or misgivings for the future we may have, we are united in wishing India and the peoples of India happiness and prosperity for the future. We hope they may be able to pursue a path which shows toleration of their varying peoples, and which respects the dignity of the individual and the rights of nations.
I must say that from the survey I have had of the proposed Constitution I think there is very much to applaud in that work, which, of course, is a matter entirely for India. I am sure I am speaking for all your Lordships when I say that our old association with India and old memories of difficulties met and overcome together make us all the more anxious to do everything we can to ensure that the future of India and of her governors is a happy and prosperous one. I believe that by passing this Bill and removing a small technical difficulty which might otherwise arise at the present time, we are doing the right and wise thing. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
§ Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ 5.30 p.m.
LORD CLYDESMUIRMy Lords, I have been asked by my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition to state the view of those who sit on these Benches in regard to this Bill. Its purpose has been clearly explained by the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor, and the Bill itself is a model of simplicity. Its shortness is no measure of its importance. It is of fundamental importance to ourselves and to all the other members of 1452 the Commonwealth. As the noble and learned Viscount has said, it had an unopposed passage in another place, and I hope the same attitude will be adopted in this House.
The decision taken in April last by all the members of the Commonwealth to accept India's proposal that she should become a Republic and yet remain a full member of the Commonwealth was an important and far-reaching decision. I should not be honest if I did not confess that the proposal to become a Republic filled my mind with anxiety, and I think that is true of others who sit on these Benches. Frankly, I should have been happier if India had felt able to take the more orthodox path, like other members of the Commonwealth, including the two Asiatic Dominions of Pakistan and Ceylon, and remain a Dominion within the Commonwealth. That is a relationship with which we are familiar and a state of affairs which we understand, and not unnaturally there was some uneasiness in our minds at the thought of a step into the unknown. But the British Commonwealth has never been afraid of a step into the unknown. Its strength is in its adaptability to changing world conditions, and when all the free sister nations of the Commonwealth met in April last and agreed to this proposal it was a notable achievement. It was especially notable that this agreement should have been obtained in a world where discord is the rule. It gives one faith in the future of our great family of nations. It is our duty now to take the practical steps which follow this decision and I believe we should take them in good will, whatever our anxieties have been, as an earnest of our desire that relations between India and the rest of the Commonwealth should continue to be close and happy.
The Bill confers considerable benefits upon India—make no mistake about it, there are considerable benefits—in the retention of full membership of the Commonwealth. They include the trade preferences between India and ourselves, and the provisions of our law respecting Indians and Indian property in this country. It also confers rights upon Indians in the Colonies and protectorates and United Kingdom trust territories, subject, of course, to the existing rights of the Colonial Legislatures. That is one 1453 side of the picture. On the other side, apart from reciprocal provisions in India, let us acknowledge the great benefit which we and the sister nations of the Commonwealth retain by the continuance of India in our fellowship. One has only to look farther east at China, where the spread of doctrines at variance with the conceptions of our free nation is taking place, to realise that India, if in close and happy association with the rest of the Commonwealth, can make a great contribution to the stability of the Commonwealth and to the peace of the world.
I have heard that there are certain anxieties about points arising from this Bill. It has been put to me that there is some uncertainty about the nationality of persons born in India of British parents. As I read the Bill, it has no effect on that at all, but perhaps the noble and learned Viscount will refer to that in his reply. Another anxiety that has been expressed is that the Bill gives wide powers to His Majesty's Government to act by Orders in Council. At times Parliament have been hesitant and suspicious about the wide use of Orders in Council, but I note that in another place the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations gave a pledge, to which I attach importance. The Secretary of State said:
On any matter of controversial or substantial importance we shall not seek to act under Clause 1 (3) of the Bill, that is, by Order in Council. I give the House that pledge.So that if there are matters of controversy or importance in regard to citizenship and so on, Orders in Council will not be used, but Parliament will be consulted in the normal way.As the noble and learned Viscount has said, there is one thing of prime importance in this agreement—namely, that India agrees to accept His Majesty the King as the symbol of the free association of the members of our family. As such he is head of the Commonwealth. And it was the Leader of the Opposition in another place who said that he conceived that the very great significance and value of our monarchy seemed thereby to be enhanced. I trust that this mutual bond may yet prove to be the strongest of all, and that India in future may grow to have that feeling of affection which is, I think, the strongest emotion in all our hearts here, and which I believe sustains and strengthens the free people of the 1454 Commonwealth more than any other factor. Such is my earnest wish.
The Constitution which India has framed as a result of three years of hard work in her Constituent Assembly is of the greatest interest not only to this country but to all the Dominions. It is entirely for India to frame, and the request I am now going to make is in no sense any infringement of that sovereign right, but rather that we should have complete information. I hope it can be arranged that when the Constitution is framed, it can be published in the form of a White Paper or made available in some way to Parliament, and perhaps the noble and learned Viscount will say in his reply if that can be done. It is not only of interest to ourselves but also to other members of the Commonwealth.
In passing, I note with interest, from what I have seen of the Constitution, that the framework of the much-maligned 1935 Government of India Act has been fairly extensively used, and perhaps those who toiled over this Act and tried to work it, both in this country and in India, may take a little solace from that. The most significant thing in all this is the foundation of India's desire to stay in the Commonwealth, which I believe is good feeling towards this country. There are many manifestations that that good feeling is alive and growing. I will not weary your Lordship with this, though I could readily give a number of examples. Technical advisers are being asked to go out to India. Business men are expanding their business in a good atmosphere. The Indian Navy is commanded by a flag officer who is a distinguished British Admiral well known to your Lordships. Bankers and business men have recently visited India and have been well received and their advice sought. If your Lordships will forgive me one, personal illustration, I should like to tell you that the other day I received a report of the Scots Kirk in Bombay—a church which I used to attend when I was there—and whose congregation had its fair share of hard-headed business men and bankers. That congregation is increasing in numbers. Its minister reports with pride that it has gone up in numbers in the last year and is larger than it was before the war.
1455 Your Lordships may say that these are straws, but straws show the way the wind blows, and, with encouragement, it should blow fair. We must do our best to give help and encouragement to India in all our actions. It would be right and proper to say that this atmosphere of good will is also evident in the sister Dominion of Pakistan. When India was divided, part of the great work of the British in past years in the sub-continent fell to Pakistan, and it is true to say that in that country there has been good feeling towards us, too. We must in all our dealings be most careful to show impartiality, and as between these two countries to do our best to help them equally with their problems. In that way we can help them to get on with each other. As was said in another place, complications may arise in the future working of this Bill, perhaps in relation to future legislation in India regarding citizenship. But if we have a sure foundation of good will and good understanding we should not fear this. We can make a contribution to-day by our attitude towards this Bill. It is quite true that good will alone is not enough: there must be acts, there must be agreements and there must be the visible ties which bind nations together. But all that is of no worth at all unless there is the foundation of proper understanding. Let us make our contribution to that to-day by giving no grudging passage to this Bill.
§ 5.42 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF READINGMy Lords, the adoption by India of the particular course which is reflected in this Bill has obviously set a considerable problem from the legislative and legal point of view. We welcome the solution which is contained in this Bill, and in particular the effect it will have in preserving in this House and on these Benches the noble Lord, Lord Sinha, whose value has already been proved to your Lordships' House. For the rest, we fervently trust that the new order which is signalised by the Bill will bring to India prosperity, progress and peace. During the past thirty years a multiplicity of proposals for the future constitutional status of India have been advanced—some tentatively proffered, and others vigorously pressed. As so often happens, when the 1456 time for decision comes all those suggestions go by the board in face of a further novel suggestion which up to that moment had been scarcely either contemplated or canvassed. It is now in the shape of a Bill on its unimpeded way towards the Statute Book, by the common and ready consent of us all; and it is surely yet one further testimony, if such were needed, of the supreme fact that the Commonwealth is not a manufactured article but an organic growth.
If we may to-day, for one moment, look backward, it will not be for the purpose of reviving obsolete conflicts or rekindling spent passions, but only to accentuate by contrast our gratification at the settlement of differences that once seemed so formidable and so obdurate. If the dead past is to bury its dead, let us at least make it a selective burial, and let us not inter in oblivion the devoted public services, the close personal friendships and the simple and selfless loyalties which have given life and warmth to the story of Britain in India. Those memories must live on into the future, to be the background for what we all hope may be the bright years ahead.
§ 5.46 p.m.
§ LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCEMy Lords, this is a most felicitous occasion. I have the greatest pleasure in associating myself with the speeches of the three noble Lords who have so far contributed to this debate. The noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, who is responsible for the drafting of this Bill, is to be congratulated upon the extreme simplicity with which he has dealt with this complex and difficult matter. The noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, who has spoken for the Opposition, if he will allow me to say so, played a distinguished part in serving under two Governments in this country and a Government in India—I think this must almost be a record for service—first of all as a distinguished Governor of Bombay, and then on the many occasions when he deputised in Delhi for the Viceroy. I speak with knowledge when I say that on all those occasions he was most helpful to the promotion of good feeling. This was proved by the remarkable fact that he was invited by the Indians to remain Governor in Bombay after the British had left. Finally, the noble Marquess who speaks from the 1457 Liberal Benches, the son of a distinguished Viceroy, has put into beautiful, crystal language the feelings of this people towards India.
I want to congratulate India upon the outcome of her deliberations. When the noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, speaks with some pride of those vestiges of the 1935 Act which find a place in the Constitution as now decided in India, I, too, would like to express my pride in that it was the Constituent Assembly, set up in the first instance by the Cabinet Mission, which drafted this Constitution. I sympathise with and fully appreciate the feeling which has been expressed, I think by all three speakers who preceded me, with regard to the decision of India to be a Republic rather than to remain a Dominion in the precise position of our other Dominions. But I understand also how difficult it would have been for that great people of some 300,000,000 souls to have taken any other course than that which they have taken. As the noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, correctly said, the important thing, after all, is that India has elected to remain within the Commonwealth. That is a tremendous fact, of great benefit, as I believe, to India herself, and of great benefit to this country and to the rest of the Commonwealth. If India had decided otherwise our Commonwealth would have been cut in two geographically. As it is, we remain the largest population of any bloc in the world to-day.
I cannot help looking back to the days when I was sitting on the Bench below, acting as Secretary of State. The anxiety which exercised us all was expressed from time to time by noble Lords in all parts of 'the House—anxiety that this new approach to India might not work out to a successful, lasting good. I shared that anxiety, and perhaps I felt it even more fully than those who expressed it. But I had to remain almost dumb, because I could not respond fully to the number of questions which were asked. It was a most dangerous time, when a misspoken word might have upset the whole chance of a successful issue of the difficulties which beset us. But I feel myself, and from what has been said in this House and in another place I gather that others share my feeling, that the outcome has exceeded anything which could possibly have been hoped for. In those days we did not 1458 know whether there would be civil strife in India, or whether there might be bloodshed in the relations between India and this country. We have reached a successful conclusion of which all those who have had any part in it can be justly proud, and which I believe is going to be of great benefit, net only to ourselves and India, but to the world as a whole. As the Lord Chancellor has said, there may be some further points which will hereafter come before the British Parliament, as a result of some future action taken in India. But this step we are taking to-day takes account of the main change which has been brought about by the decisions of the Constituent Assembly. It provides a lasting solution upon which history will accord, its verdict of admiration and respect.
§ 5.52 p.m.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, there is little for me to say in reply. The noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, referred to the distinguished part which the noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, has himself played in bringing about that happy relationship which, fortunately, does prevail to-day. I should like to say that I think the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, is himself entitled to a large share of the credit for the happy relationship which now exists, because the people he met when he was out there trusted him and knew that he had a single-minded desire to try and bring about a satisfactory relationship. When I have said all that and I have paid all these tributes, I am, bound to say, since I myself was present on many occasions at this Commonwealth conference, that I think there are two men to whom the credit for the very sensible arrangement we made should be given. Those two men are Pandit Nehru on the one hand, and Clement Attlee on the other. It was an exceedingly difficult position with which we were faced and there were all sorts of technical difficulties which might have been raised against the solution to which we came. These two men, by a process of tolerance, give-and-take, and determination to solve difficulties, managed to surmount all those difficulties and bring about the happy state of affairs which is enshrined in this Bill. Pandit Nehru is faced with an immensely difficult task. I myself believe that the success of that task is of vital importance, 1459 not only to India but to the world, and this discussion in this House to-day may be taken as showing that all Parties in this country, no matter what their political differences may be, wish India well in solving the problems which lie ahead.
One or two questions were asked with which I can deal very briefly. So far as any question of nationality is concerned, it is not affected by this Bill. The whole point of the Bill is that the law remains exactly as it is, notwithstanding the decision of India to became a Republic. With regard to Orders in Council, I will repeat the assurance which was given before. The only Order in Council I have in mind at the present time is one of no moment at all, dealing with a matter of superannuation, or something of that sort. It is for matters of that kind that this machinery will be used. The noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, made an interesting suggestion about a White Paper setting out the Indian Constitution when it is finally passed. I am sure it is all to the good that all of us here should have ample opportunity of seeing what has been enacted. Whether a White Paper is necessary, I rather doubt. I think we should be able to obtain a sufficient number of copies of the new Constitution to put in the library. But I certainly think it entirely to the good that members of both Houses should have an opportunity of seeing what has been enacted, and if it is necessary to take any specific steps to that end I will see that those steps are taken. I am most grateful to your Lordships for the way in which you have accepted this Bill and for the way in which you have assisted in the send-off of the new Republic.
§ On Question, Bill read 2a; Committee negatived.
§ Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of December 8), Bill read 3a, and passed.