HL Deb 13 July 1948 vol 157 cc815-25

5.40 p.m.

House again in Committee.

Clause 14:

Public interest.

14. In determining whether any conditions to which this Act applies or any things which are done by the parties concerned as a result of, or for the purpose of preserving, any conditions to which this Act applies, operate or may be expected to operate against the public interest, all matters which appear in the particular circumstances to be relevant shall be taken into account and, amongst other things, regard shall be had to the need, consistently with the general economic position of the United Kingdom, to achieve— (a) the production, treatment and distribution by the most efficient and economical means of goods of such types, in such volume and at such prices as will best meet the requirements of home and overseas markets;

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE moved, in paragraph (a), after "types" to insert "and qualities." The noble Lord said: I feel that this Amendment is one of considerable substance, and is deserving of the attention of the Committee. Nowhere in the Bill, as at present drafted, is there any admission that certain types of restrictive agreements may be highly desirable to protect the quality of United Kingdom products. The normal reason why competitors in an industry get together to fix minimum prices is that circumstances have arisen whereby, because of a price war, the quality of the product has to be cut. A cut in quality in the next few years may often mean serious damage to the export trade. It may well be that in certain cases there are other and better methods of preventing a fall in quality, but there will be cases in which the effect of the cancellation of a minimum price agreement, or of an agreement to withhold supplies from offenders, may lead to a diminution of quality. It is, therefore, perfectly plain that the effect on quality of terminating restrictive agreements should be one of the matters uppermost in the minds of the Commission.

In a few sentences I will give your Lordships one example of this. It is possible that the whole utility fabric and apparel schemes, based as they are on minimum specifications, with the sanction of withholding supplies resting in the hands of the Government in cases where such specifications are not met, could properly be regarded as a form of restraint of trade. In fact, this particular type of practice may well prove to be essential if the public are to be best served in the future. When the existing utility schemes, which we all know so well, are dropped, it is possible that some, at least, of the various elements in the textile industry will find it necessary to reach amongst themselves an agreement maintaining the minimum standards of the utility scheme, and maintaining the sanctions which alone will ensure that such a scheme will operate. It is to protect just such an arrangement that we wish to insert this Amendment in the definition of the public interest. I sincerely hope that this Amendment will find favour with the Government, because it is one upon which we feel very strongly. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 12, line 41, after ("types") insert ("and qualities").—(Lord Balfour of Inchrye.)

LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH

The noble Lord is quite right in what he has said, and I will not waste time by repeating it. In the definition of the public interest, in Clause 14 (a), only types of goods which will best meet the requirements of the home and overseas markets are mentioned. This Amendment adds "qualities" to "types." "Types" might have been all right to cover "qualities," but it is as well to have this clear, and I have pleasure in accepting the noble Lord's Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 15:

Reports on general questions.

15.—(1) The Board of Trade may at any time require the Commission to submit to them a report on the general effect on the public interest of practices of a specified class, being practices which in the opinion of the Board are commonly adopted as a result of, or for the purpose of preserving, conditions to which this Act applies.

LORD CHORLEY moved to add to subsection (1): Provided that the Board shall not require a report under this subsection on the general effect of practices of any class unless they are satisfied that practices, of that class have been dealt with, in relation to goods of particular descriptions, by previous reports of the Commission and that it is expedient that the views of the Commission in relation to practices of that class should be formulated in a general report. The noble Lord said: Clause 15 gives the Board of Trade power to call for reports on general questions. During the discussion of the Bill on Second Reading a number of your Lordships expressed fear lest this power should be used by the Board of Trade to call for what I think was described by one noble Lord as "a general essay." It never has been the intention of the Government that this power should be used in that way. Therefore, we are content to try to safeguard the position. We hope and believe that we have done so by the tabling of this Amendment which in effect, as your Lordships will see, confines the case where a general report may be called for to that sort of case where the Commission have conducted an investigation, have become seized of all the relevant information and are well situated to prepare such a report. I hope your Lordships will agree that this meets the criticism that was made, and will accept the Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 13, line 11, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Chorley.)

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

The criticism which this Amendment is designed to meet was voiced by several noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Swinton, who hoped that theoretical essays were not going to be the work of the Commission, but that it would consist of real and practical examination. Broadly, I think, this Amendment meets our point, and we are grateful to the noble Lord for moving it.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 16:

Annual report.

(2) Every such report shall, amongst other things, include a review in such detail as the Board think fit of the suggestions and requests (not being suggestions and requests which appear to the Board to be frivolous) which have been made to the Board for the reference of any particular matter to the Commission under the provisions of this Act:

Provided that when a request has been made to the Board by a body which in the opinion of the Board could properly claim to represent, for the purposes in question, the interests of any of the following, that is to say— (a) consumers in Great Britain or a substantial proportion of those consumers; the review shall, if the body so require, contain a specific statement that the request has been made by that body, and of the description of goods to which the request relates.

5.48 p.m.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

had given Notice to move in subsection (2), to omit all words from, and including, "suggestions" down to the beginning of the proviso, and to insert: investigations which have been made in reference to any particular or general matters by the Commission under the provisions of this Act. The noble Lord said: It may be for the convenience of your Lordships if we discuss together all the Amendments to Clause 16, with the exception of that in the name of the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, at page 13, line 42, which deals with a different subject. Your Lordships will see that the last Amendment on this clause covers the point which all my Amendments aim to cover. Therefore, if it is convenient to the Government, we might say what we wish to say on this, and I will withdraw this Amendment. I shall be pleased to accept the Government's Amendment, which substantially meets the point which I tried to make on the Second Reading of the Bill.

My aim is to protect the position of industries which might be reported to the Board of Trade, with a view to investigation by the Board of Trade, which, if a prima facie case were made out, would be passed on to the Commission to be investigated. I felt that it was unfair that those who were, so to speak, in dread of the Board of Trade but had not been touched by the Board of Trade, should be held up as a section of the community accused of going in for monopolistic and restrictive practices. My Amendments suggest that the report of the Board of Trade should contain only details of cases and should cite only cases that had been actually investigated by the Commission. The Government Amendment goes more than half way towards meeting my point. It says that the report shall not include those industries which have been reported for investigation but where the Board of Trade have found there is not really a prima facie case to pass on to the Commission. It is not quite what we like, but it is most of what we wanted. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 13, line 26, leave out from the second ("the") to the end of line 30 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Balfour of Inchrye.)

LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his helpful attitude, but I think it might serve a useful purpose if I explained why the Amendments in this form would not be so acceptable to the Government as the Amendment which is to be moved by my noble friend on behalf of Lord Hall. The effect of these Amendments would be to substitute, instead of a review of complaints and a list of certain complaints, a review of investigations and a list of investigations. The whole point of subsection (2) of the clause is to focus attention on the Board of Trade's failure to do their duty if at any time they received complaints which ought to be referred and did not in fact refer them. To give a list of investigations is to do nothing; practically all formal investigations will be followed by published reports. In making an annual report about the operation of the Act, a review of investigations is inevitable. It may not be sufficiently understood that the bodies described in Clause 16 (with the exception of the professional workers) are not sectional bodies, but national and representative bodies, and that the Government would regard the body representative of the organised workers of Great Britain as the T.U.C., and would not include in the list representations from individual trade unions, any more than from individual trade associations or chambers of commerce. I think the Government Amendment goes as far as we can. The noble Lord has accepted that, for which we on this side of the House are grateful.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

In view of the statement of the Government and the Government Amendment, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD CHORLEY

This Amendment is preparatory to the Amendment to which the noble Lord has just referred. There is a further preparatory Amendment at line 43 on the same page, and the substantive Amendment is at line 45. In view of the fact that this matter has been raised, perhaps your Lordships will think it convenient for me to deal with it at this stage, although there is not much more for me to add. The noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, has pointed out the problem which his Amendment was designed to meet, and has referred to the criticism which he made during the Second Reading debate. This Amendment has been tabled in order to meet that criticism. The subsection which was complained about is not to apply in the case of a request if the Board of Trade are satisfied that there is no sufficient ground for supposing that it is or may be the fact that conditions to which this Act applies prevail as respects the description of goods in question. I do not think there is any more I need add. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 13, line 31, leave out ("Provided that") and insert ("(3) subject to the provisions of this subsection ").—(Lord Chorley.)

VISCOUNT SWINTON

I want to get one thing clear, because I think we are near agreement on this matter. I would like to make my point because I have not been in the Committee during the discussion. If there has been a proposal to make an inquiry and the Board of Trade have decided that there is no prima facie case, then I think it is perfectly reasonable to say, "Well, such and such a body asked the Board of Trade to make an inquiry into this matter but the Board of Trade have decided that there was not a prima facie case so they did not refer it. That ought to be in the report."

LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH

It will be.

VISCOUNT SWINTON

I do not in the least object to that, because that, in fact, is a decision, and the Board of Trade have decided against an inquiry. I absolutely agree that if an inquiry has been held and a trade association has been criticised, that fact should appear fully in the published report, because the whole essence of the; Bill is that we should rely upon the widest publicity. What I am anxious about is this. Suppose that I accuse the noble Lord's trade association. I think it would be unfair that a report should come out, in which it is said: "There have been a dozen inquiries which have been investigated and the results appear in the published report; there have been a dozen complaints and they have been turned down because the Board of Trade did not think there was prima facie evidence; but there are two inquiries about which the Board have not made up their minds and which are still sub judice. One is an allegation against the trade association of Lord Lucas that they will not deal in motor cars with anybody except the Labour Party, and the other is against the association of Viscount Swinton, that it is guilty of some very corrupt practice." I think it would be quite wrong that it should go out to the world that those accusations have been made. We might wait for a year, when it might be found that the accusations would never come before the tribunal at all because the Board of Trade, when they had considered them (I know they would do it as quickly as possible, but some time must be occupied in doing it) might decide that there was no prima facie case. Lord Lucas and I would have to remain for a year under the stigma of being accused of some improper practice, although when the following year's report came out we would either have been acquitted by the tribunal, or the Board of Trade would have decided, like a Grand Jury, that there was no case to go to trial. I want a safeguard provided against that happening.

It cannot be of the least advantage to anybody to have a report in which it is said that this person is accused of arson, that that person is accused of burglary, or that another person is accused of theft. It is not as if you had to publish a Cause List which the courts have to publish. It seems to me to come within the ordinary principle that while a thing is sub judice, you do not talk about it. The moment the inquiry has been adjudicated upon, then I am all in favour of the fullest possible publicity.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

I think the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, has one thing not quite right, and I am not sure whether the noble Lord, Lord Lucas's, assent was correct. My noble friend said that where an industry had been reported to the Board of Trade and there was found to be no case against the firm, he did not mind the firm being listed.

VISCOUNT SWINTON

No, because the Board of Trade have acquitted them.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

In fact, what this Amendment does is to take out entirely from tin report of the Board of Trade any mention of a case where there had been a prima facie investigation and no case was made.

LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH

That is quite right.

LORD CHORLEY

The object, of course, is that there should be no stigma. But the point which the noble Viscount has made concerning the sub judice aspect is rather a different one. My own impression on reading this clause is that the report is a report on the operation of the Act in the past period. I would not have thought that there would be brought within the report a case which was under investigation, because until the investigation is complete it would not come within the operation of the Act during the twelve months. But that is just my own reading of the clause, and, as the point is important, I shall be glad to take more expert advice.

VISCOUNT SWINTON

I should be glad if the noble Lord would look at it again. I understand that the impression of those who were engaged on this matter in another place was that the cases which were sub judice would come into the report, and that then there would be a year's wait. I think we are all completely agreed. But suppose that there are half a dozen cases which are mentioned, which the Board of Trade have under consideration and which they may or may not be sending to the Commission. The noble Lord has almost gone further than I asked him to, by saying that where the Board of Trade had turned down a case it will not be mentioned. A fortiori what ought not to be mentioned in the report is the sort of case where A or B is accused of an awful crime and the Commission have not even begun to consider it. It may be that the noble Lord is right, and that as this is worded that could not find its way into the report. But as there is some doubt, it ought to be made quite clear.

LORD CHORLEY

I am perfectly happy to give the noble Viscount that assurance. It is a matter of legal construction and it may be that the noble Viscount is right in suggesting that there is such a power. I am not in a position to make any statement as to policy, and I shall be very glad to deal with the matter on the lines the noble Viscount has suggested.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CHORLEY moved, in subsection (2), after paragraph (f) to insert: (g) the professional workers of Great Britain, of England and Wales or of Scotland, who are particularly concerned.

The noble Lord said: This is an Amendment which has been tabled at the request of the Opposition in order to make provision under the complaint procedure for the complaints of professional bodies. As your Lordships will see, there are already a substantial number of bodies referred to in the proviso at the end of the clause, and it was strongly urged that professional bodies should be introduced—bodies of the type not covered by the earlier paragraph in the proviso. We accept that view, and we have tabled this in order to include professional bodies. All I need point out as to the wording of the Amendment is that it covers those professional workers who are particularly concerned in the matter which is under investigation. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 13, line 42, at end, insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Chorley.)

LORD CLYDESMUIR

While thanking the noble Lord for this Amendment, may I draw attention to the apparently rather curious wording: the professional workers of Great Britain, of England and Wales or of Scotland,… May I take it that this is not an attempt to go back on the Act of Uniformity? It is capable of a more or less sinister interpretation! Does it mean boards which purport to represent professional workers in Scotland, or in England and Wales, as opposed to bodies who represent the whole of Great Britain? The wording is a little curious.

LORD CHORLEY

I am sure the noble Lord would not dream of accusing me of attacking the interests of Scotland in the presence of the noble Lord, Lord Morrison, who is, very properly, always so anxious to defend those interests. The point is that these professional bodies in some cases cover the whole of Great Britain, and in some cases they cover only England, Scotland, or Wales as the case may be. This is an attempt to cover that.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

Would the noble Lord look at the point whether "Northern Ireland" ought to be put in?

LORD CHORLEY

I am much obliged to the noble Lord, and I will certainly look at that.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CHORLEY

This is a consequential Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 13, line 43, after ("review") insert ("referred to in subsection (2) of this section").—(Lord Chorley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CHORLEY

This is the Amendment which we discussed a moment or two ago. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 13, line 45, at end insert ("Provided that this subsection shall not apply in the case of a request if the Board of Trade are satisfied that there is no sufficient ground for supposing that it is or may be the fact that conditions to which this Act applies prevail as respects the description of goods in question.")—(Lord Chorley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 17 to 19 agreed to.

Clause 20 [Interpretation]:

LORD CHORLEY

This is merely a drafting Amendment to bring in the new-Companies Act of 1948. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 15, line 24, leave out ("eighteen of the Companies Act, 1947") and insert ("one hundred and fifty-four of the Companies Act, 1948").—(Lord Chorley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 20, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 21 agreed to.

Clause 22 [Short Title]:

LORD CHORLEY

This is consequential on the new title of the Commission which your Lordships have already accepted. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 16, line 14, leave out ("Monopoly") and insert ("Monopolies and Restrictive Practices").—(Lord Chorley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Remaining clause agreed to.

House resumed.