HL Deb 02 July 1947 vol 149 cc768-79

2.45 p.m.

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Chorley.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

Power to establish development councils, and purposes thereof.

(3) Before making a development council order the Board or Minister concerned shall consult any organization appearing to them or him to be representative of substantial numbers of persons carrying on business in the industry and such organizations representative of persons employed in the industry as appear to the Board or Minister concerned to be appropriate.

LORD CHERWELL had given Notice of an Amendment to add the following paragraph to subsection (3): A Development Council order shall not be made unless the Board or Minister concerned is satisfied that the establishment of a Development Council for the industry is desired by a substantial number of the persons engaged in the industry. The noble Lord said: I trust that I am right in assuming that orders under this Bill will be laid in draft and that there will be an opportunity of debating them and possibly amending them before they come up finally. Some of us feel that there are a good many difficulties about the procedure by affirmative Resolution when the whole order must be thrown out or accepted as it stands. I would be very glad if we could have an assurance on that point. Another point which I think arises here is this. I believe assurances have been given, or something like assurances, but it would relieve our minds if they could be given specifically, that these development councils are not intended to duplicate and overlay existing organizations which are functioning satisfactorily. I have in mind for instance organizations such as the research associations. There is a certain anxiety amongst the staff with regard to the possibility that the whole thing will be reorganized and that they will be thrown out of work. It would be very helpful if the Government spokesman could give an assurance on that point.

LORD CHORLEY

I expected the noble Lord to move his Amendment first, and possibly when the clause was put to raise these rather more general points, but if it be your Lordships' wish that I should deal with them now I am content to do so. The first matter which the noble Lord raised was the question of the draft order which will deal with the scope of the functions conferred upon the development councils being published in advance of the time when they are laid before Parliament, in order that they may be confirmed or reversed as Parliament thinks fit. My right honourable and learned friend, during the discussion in another place, gave an undertaking which, with your Lordships' permission, I will read. He said: As the matter is experimental and as I am anxious to get the best possible results, I propose in the initial cases to take the somewhat exceptional step of publishing, in advance, a summary of what we propose should be inserted in the order before it is made, so that there will be time and opportunity for interested persons to let me have their views upon it which can then be considered before the order is passed. I hope that that procedure will assist in getting the co-operation not only of those in the industry but of interested members of Parliament as well. I understand that it is the intention that the draft shall in fact be laid in each House of Parliament in order that members may be particularly well placed, so to speak, to have the opportunity of getting it and studying it.

The other point which was raised by the noble Lord was in regard to the activities of existing organizations. We all know that in a number of industries very valuable work has been in the past and is now being done by existing organizations, trade organizations, research institutes and other bodies of that type. I am very glad to be able to assure the noble Lord that the development councils will not duplicate work which is already being satisfactorily done by such existing industrial research organizations as I think the noble Lord has particularly in mind. It is my right honourable friend's intention that the development councils shall in fact work through, and in very close co-operation with, existing research institutions of this kind. They may, and I have no doubt in a number of cases will, be able to give them backing of a very valuable character, both financially and morally.

If I may just take the instance of the Cotton Board. The Cotton Board, of course, has been in existence now for a period of something like seven years. It has never made any sort of attempt to interfere with the valuable activities of the Shirley Institute, and has given it from time to time financial and moral support. It is intended that the development councils shall co-operate in the same sort of way. I trust the noble Lord will be satisfied with these assurances.

LORD CHERWELL

I thank the Minister for his assurance. It will give a great deal of satisfaction to many people.

I beg now to move my Amendment. It seems to me perfectly clear that these development councils can only succeed if they are desired by a substantial number of persons engaged in the industry. I think that the Minister will agree. I think therefore it would be very helpful if this Amendment were inserted, and I hope the Government will see their way to accept it. No Minister would wish to override any overwhelming opinion against forming a development council; that would foredoom it to failure. I would also like to ask two other questions. Firstly, we are told that before making a development council order the Board or Minister concerned shall consult any organization "being representative of a substantial number of persons carrying on business in the industry, and such organizations of persons employed in the industry as shall appear to him to be appropriate." I trust that will include consultation respecting the functions of the development council which is to be formed. We can scarcely say: "We are going to form a development council but we cannot say what it is going to do." In the second place I trust he will consult them also as to the delimitation of the industry, because of course it would be very difficult to make orders of this sort unless one knew what was meant by "industry." It would be helpful if the Minister could give assurances in that sense. The Amendment which stands in my name is intended to indicate that these development councils should not be formed unless they have behind them a substantial measure of opinion in the industry. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 22, at end insert the said words. —(Lord Cherwell.)

LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH

Might I ask the noble Lord who moved this Amendment what he means by the words "a substantial number of the persons engaged in the industry"? The illustration which springs to one's mind is this: suppose all the representatives of organized labour required a development council, and all the representatives of organized employers did not want a development council, and the employees outnumbered the employers by 100 to one, would the noble Lord call that "a substantial number" although it was representative of one side only? Again, you may have a very small number of employers controlling the vast bulk of the output of an industry, whereas a multitude of small employers only control a very small output. What would the noble Lord call a "substantial number?"

I would, with respect, point out that I think this Amendment will worsen the position the noble Lord seeks to safeguard, because the Minister under subsection (3) of Clause 1 is obliged to consult any organization appearing to him "to be representative of substantial numbers of persons carrying on business in the industry and such organizations representative of persons employed in the industry …" The term used in the Amendment is "desired by a substantial number of the persons engaged in the industry." I cannot conceive that the Minister, after consulting the two sides of industry as enumerated in subsection (3) of Clause 1 would do anything that would be against the wishes of the bulk of all sections of the industry; but I am afraid that the Minister would find himself in an embarrassing position if he took the noble Lord's Amendment literally and was influenced by a substantial number of persons engaged in the industry, but representative of one side only.

LORD CHERWELL

I think it is clear that the word "substantial" means a reasonable proportion of the people engaged in business in the industry, or better a reasonable proportion of the output capacity and of the people employed in the industry. It is because it is impossible to define these things exactly that these general words are inserted. I cannot conceive of the extreme cases that the noble Lord put forward ever happening. If they did, and this were reported when the draft order was made, that would be the time when we could discuss these points and the draft order might be refused.

LORD CHORLEY

I am very glad to say that we accept the Amendment moved by the noble Lord. I do not think there is anything I need add in reply to the noble Lord, in view of the answer given by the noble Lord opposite. Every case must be judged on its merits in relation to the situation with which the Minister or the Board has to deal. The noble Lord asked for an assurance with regard to the scope of the constitutions of the development councils. I am very glad to be able to reassure him on that point. The order, will of course, deal with functions, and the consultations with the representative organizations in industry will deal with the very matters which the noble Lord has in mind, in particular with the functions and what those functions should be, how large, how the levy should be raised, how the industry should be defined for the purpose of the order, and matters of that kind. All these matters will then be set out in the draft order, and if members of either House feel that something has been left out which ought to be in, there will be ample opportunity to raise the matter.

LORD CHERWELL

I take it that the upshot of the consultations will be made known forthwith, or when the Minister moves for the affirmative Resolutions on the order.

LORD CHORLEY

Yes, certainly.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

2.47 p.m.

Clause 2:

Constitution, etc., of development councils.

(4) A development council order shall specify the number, or to a maximum or minimum number, of persons of each of the said categories of be included.

LORD CHORLEY moved, at the end of subsection (4), to insert: and shall contain provision for securing that the persons who are included as being of the categories specified in paragraphs (a) and (b) of the last preceding subsection shall together be of a number constituting a majority of the members of the council. The noble Lord said: I rise to move the Amendment standing in my name. The object of this Government Amendment is to ensure that the members appointed as representing the interest of the employers and of the workpeople in the industry will constitute a majority over the independent members and the other members. Considerable apprehension was expressed in the debate in another place, and also in the debate in your Lordships' House, lest the independent members might be regarded, so to speak, as under the control of the Minister, and that other members, more particularly those representative of the industry, would be swamped. My right honourable and learned friend gave an assurance in another place that a Government Amendment would be tabled in order to secure that this matter might be safe from that point of view. This is the Amendment, and I hope your Lordships will accept it. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 11, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Chorley.)

LORD CHERWELL

I should like to welcome this Amendment. It is most important that there should be no question or idea that the Government nominees might swamp the others. I hope it is, in general, not intended that the so-called independent members should even reach the number of the other members. We do not want to tie the Government down specifically. This Amendment does safeguard us against the alternative that they should form the majority.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

On Question, Whether Clause 2, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill:

LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH

Before this clause is put, might I ask my noble friend one question? If the Minister exercises his powers under subsection (5) of Clause 2 and does appoint to one of these development councils persons having special knowledge of matters relating to the marketing or distribution of products, into which category will these people fall? Will they fall into the category (a) representing the interests of persons carrying on business in the industry, or will they fall into category (c) of other persons, being persons as to whom the Board or Minister is satisfied that they have no financial or industrial interest—in other words, independent members? If the dice is going to be loaded I would agree that it should be loaded in the way the Amendment sets out—it will mean that the loading will have to be somewhat greater if those representatives of the distributive trades are treated as independent members. If they are to be treated as members of the industry, as of course they are, then it might tend to defeat the object of the Amendment. I would like to ask my noble friend how they will be treated.

LORD CHORLEY

I think it is impossible to give a categorical answer to the question asked by the noble Lord, because it might be that in a certain industry there was a distribution side which could properly fall into category (a). But I think, generally speaking, my right honourable and learned friend had in view persons appointed to represent marketing quite apart from the industry as such, and, in that event, in those cases where he makes appointments it is his intention to include them among the independent members. I think that is quite clear.

LORD CHERWELL

With reference to that, perhaps I might raise a point on subsection (5) of Clause 2 concerning the appointment of the persons representing those engaged in business or those employed in the industry. As I read the clause, it says that the order may specify requirements and also may specify what bodies or persons the Board or Minister may consult before appointing persons to be members. Development councils have enormous powers. They can levy contributions from the industry, and in order to maintain some sort of semblance of the theory that there shall be no taxation without representation I hope that the persons appointed to represent either category (a) or category (b) will be appointed after consultation with the proper bodies. As I quite see, it is a very difficult thing to lay down in the Bill exactly who should be consulted and to give some definite wording which will indicate that the Minister shall consult an organization and not merely that he may do so, but I hope the noble Lord will be able to consider this matter and will, on Report, be able to find words that will indicate that persons representing these categories shall be appointed after consultation with the proper organizations and not without any reference to them.

LORD CHORLEY

Very explicit assurances have been given both in another place and in this House on the Second Reading of this Bill. I quite understand the noble Lord wishing to have something in the Bill itself as opposed to assurances. I am happy to say that we will consider his suggestion and, if it is reasonably practicable to introduce a wording which will deal with the point which he has in mind between now and the Report stage and put it down, we shall be very pleased to do so.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 3 and 4 agreed to.

3.55 p.m.

Clause 5 [Restriction on disclosure of information]:

LORD CHORLEY moved to insert at the end of the clause: (4) A development council order shall make provision for ensuring that, where under powers conferred by virtue of either of the two last preceding sections a requirement is imposed to furnish returns or other information relating to an individual business or to produce for examination books or other documents or records, and the person on whom the requirement is made uses in his business what he claims to be a secret process that ought not to be disclosed on the ground of risk of prejudice to his business, he shall not be subject to any liability for withholding disclosure of any particulars relating to the process unless the form of the requirement and the making of it in that form have been approved by the Board or Minister concerned after consideration of his claim.

The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment is, as far as is practicable, to protect trade secrets. Your Lordships will remember that a certain amount of misgiving was expressed by some noble Lords on the Second Reading lest the powers conferred by this clause on the development councils to call for statistics and other material from the industry might conceivably be wrongly used, in such a way as to reveal the trade secrets and other secrets of a very valuable character to other firms and companies in the industry. My right honourable and learned friend did give an assurance in another place that the clause would be tightened up in order to prevent that sort of thing happening, and this Amendment has been tabled with that object in view. I hope that your Lordships will think it satisfactory. It is rather difficult to frame a clause which will completely meet the difficulty, but I hope that your Lordships will think that this new subsection is satisfactory. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 41, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Chorley.)

LORD CHERWELL

We recognize the great difficulty of framing a clause to safeguard this point absolutely, but I think this subsection as proposed is going to do a great deal towards that end. Certainly it proves the intention. If anyone should find himself in any way jeopardized he will always be able to go to the Minister.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 6 and 7 agreed to.

2.58 p.m.

Clause 8 [Amendment or termination of provision for a development council]:

LORD CHERWELL

Subsection (2) in Clause 8 is drafted in an extremely vague and general manner. For instance, "functions of a kind similar to those specified in the First Schedule" can be added to the work of the development council, or functions "such as appear to the Board or Minister concerned to be capable of being conveniently exercised in association with functions of a kind specified in that Schedule." Of course, that might mean anything. I take it that the intention is merely to deal with new points, which may arise in the course of time, that have not been foreseen; that it is not intended to use those provisions in order to extend the activities or powers of the development council excessively, so that for instance they could start manufacture on a large scale, or anything like that, but that it is merely meant to deal with minor and ancillary activities that have not been foreseen. We would welcome an assurance that that is the meaning of the clause, if the Minister will give it.

LORD CHORLEY

It is, of course, true that this clause is drafted in rather general terms. In an experimental Bill of this kind it is exceedingly difficult in all cases to make the drafting as tight as one would like. The object is exactly the object which has been explained by the noble Lord; that is to say, that a development council, finding that something has been left out or that some new function has come to light over the course of years, may be in a position to get the necessary further powers in order to add this new function to those which it already discharges. There is no sort of intention that the Minister should, so to speak, step in and nationalize an industry by a side wind, or something of that kind, which, I believe, has been suggested as a possibility. I think your Lordships will realize that there are all sorts of safeguards. There is the safeguard that the matter must come from the industry itself, which, after all, a development council represents, that it must then be put into a new draft amendment order, upon which the industry has to be consulted, just in the same way as in the case of the original order. That, again, has to be laid before Parliament and there is the opportunity of challenging anything which may appear to be wrong. So I hope that the noble Lord will be content with my assurance and with the very real safeguards which do in fact exist.

Clause 8 agreed to.

Clauses 9 to 13 agreed to.

Clause 14 [Ascertainment of activities to be treated as comprised in an industry]:

LORD HAWKE

The boundaries of an industry are most nebulous, and under Clause 14 (1) it is stated that the Board or the Minister concerned has the power to designate the activities that are to be treated as constituting an industry for the purpose of this Bill. I should like an assurance that in drawing those bounds certain ancillaries will not be included within an industry—namely, the importers of food and raw materials. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to give an assurance on those lines.

LORD CHORLEY

I am advised that in the context of this Bill industry is to be interpreted as covering the field of production only. The activities of importers, merchants and distributors generally may not, therefore, be treated as part of the industry and, accordingly, will not be covered by the powers and functions of the councils which relate to the activities of persons carrying on business in the industry—for example, the compulsory collection of statistics.

LORD HAWKE

I thank the noble Lord.

Clause 14 agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

First Schedule [Functions which may be assigned to development councils]:

LORD CHERWELL

I had intended to ask a question regarding the phrase "tests on a commercial scale," and to suggest that these, or rather the establishments where these were carried out, should not degenerate into model factories. However, in view of the assurance which the noble Lord gave me on Clause 8, I think that I need scarcely ask for any further assurance. It seems plain, from what he said, that the intention is merely for full-scale experimental tests which we all recognize are necessary before it can be said that a process is really useful in industry.

LORD RANKEILLOUR

I notice that the words "promoting or undertaking" occur a great many times in this First Schedule. I think that "undertaking" occurs no fewer than eight times. Does each of these objects require a separate assignment to development councils in the eight cases where the word "undertaking" comes in?

LORD CHORLEY

This is another of those rather hypothetical questions which it is exceedingly difficult to deal with except in the context of some particular industry. Of course, these are cases where the matter is left to the discretion of the development council. It does not follow in any particular case that the council will themselves undertake. In most cases, I imagine that the undertaking side of the matter will be left to the industry itself, in which, as the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, has pointed out, there are a number of trade associations or institutions engaged in this very sort of thing. It will only be in the sort of case where there is no suitable body in the industry, and where the efforts of the development council have failed to promote such a body, to undertake the actual job of carrying out the work of an experimental factory, or whatever it may be, that the development council will themselves have to undertake the work at all. No doubt, in those circumstances an ad hoc organization will have to be built up. As at present advised, I cannot see that the development council will have, so to speak, a permanent staff on its organization for the purpose of carrying out undertakings of this kind. I think that this is to be regarded rather as an exceptional function than as one that will operate in every case.

First Schedule agreed to.

Remaining Schedule agreed to.