HL Deb 29 May 1945 vol 136 cc259-64

3.24 p.m.

EARL STANHOPE had given Notice that he would ask His Majesty's Government what it is proposed to do when Germans take hostile action in areas under British control; and move for Papers. The noble Earl said: My Lords, perhaps I may be allowed to congratulate my noble friend Lord Woolton in becoming Lord President of the Council, and may I also say I welcome it from the national point of view? Under the Lord President come the three great research departments of Industrial and Scientific Research, Medical Research and Agricultural Research. Some of the Lord Presidents have not been very much interested in those subjects, but I am quite certain that my noble friend is interested in them and will give them all the support and assistance which they will so much need in the days to come.

I need not detain your Lordships long over the Motion I have put upon the Paper. From the Press it would appear that at present the Germans are being very docile in their ways and are giving no trouble to Allied troops, but I have heard reports from those who are serving at the front that that is not quite universal even now and that some Germans are beginning to be somewhat complacent and, in one or two cases, even cheeky. I am one of those who expect that the occupation of Germany will go on for a very long time indeed, and therefore it is quite impossible that there will be no incidents during that long time of the occupation of Germany by British and other Allied troops. Now when any hostile act took place in the countries which Germany overran, Germany took hostages, and when an incident occurred she shot them or, in some cases, she even wiped out a Whole village and its inhabitants, as she did at Lidice. Of course that is quite impossible for the Allies; we cannot do anything of that kind.

Are we, then, to do nothing? Are we to allow British troops to be shot and British military equipment to be damaged? Of course, where the instigator is caught then the answer is perfectly simple: while Germany remains under military law no doubt the perpetrator will be summarily shot and any house from which he snipes will be destroyed. Similarly, when the civil administration comes into being I imagine that there, again, the perpetrator, when caught, will be tried and will be given a very severe punishment. But what if the perpetrator is not caught? Supposing somebody murders one of our men or cuts the tyres of our vehicles in the place where they are parked at night, are we then to do nothing at all? I suggest that if we do nothing the Germans, so far from thinking that that is kindliness, will simply look upon it as weakness and those incidents will increase very greatly in number. Then what are we to do?

May I make a suggestion to your Lordships? I am taking a case of which perhaps some of your Lordships would not approve—the time of the Black-and-Tan trouble in Ireland. A young officer in the Regular Army was sent with his platoon to a town and was there quartered. He sent for the leading Sinn Feiners and said to them: "I am not the least interested in your politics and I have nothing whatever to do with them. I am simply sent here to keep order, and order I am going to keep. If any act is perpetrated against either me or my men or against any Government property, I shall burn three of your houses, and I shall settle which those houses are to be when the time comes." Nothing happened for some days, and then the constabulary barracks were set on fire and destroyed. The next day that young officer walked down with his platoon to the Sinn Fein Club. He sent a party inside. They piled the furniture on the billiard table and set fire to it and stood round until it was destroyed. The Sinn Feiners came and complained bitterly about the action he had taken, and his reply was: "I warned you I should destroy three houses and you are very lucky to have had only one destroyed. The next time it happens it will be three." The result of that drastic action was that there was not a sign of any kind of breaking of the law in that town until the platoon was withdrawn. They had absolute peace and orderliness and no further incident occurred. But see what happened. The Government of that day threatened that young officer with court martial, and he very nearly was court martialled.

Now I suggest that the same sort of action—three houses to be destroyed—should be the punishment proclaimed as being that which we shall inflict in Germany in any case where we do not manage to catch the perpetrator himself. Your Lordships will realize that the German population will, in many cases, know who the perpetrator was. In other cases they will know that a stranger has come into the area, a man about whom there are considerable doubts, possibly a previous S.S. man or one of those Hitler youths who have imbibed the doctrines of Nazism since they were tiny tots. They will know that that man is there for mischief. Are they going to tell the Allied forces of a stranger whom they had better investigate as appearing in their area or are they going to house him and take his side? If, my Lords, it is realized that the punishment will come on them, on any one of them and they do not know which it will be, then they will notify our authorities that they had better look up a certain individual or a certain house and make the necessary inquiries to see that all is well. Then they will be on our side and those instances will be few; but if we do not do something of that kind those instances are likely to be many.

I speak to both sides in the House in this matter. As I said, I am one of those who hope that Germany will be occupied by the Allied forces for a very long time to come, longer than even the youngest of your Lordships will see brought to an end during his lifetime. Therefore it may be within that long period that Labour might find itself in power. They, too, I suggest have got to take this drastic action. It is for the Government themselves to declare that that is the policy of the Government. It is not fair to leave it to the military authorities or those who are controlling Germany at the time. They may feel that they will be put in exactly the same position as that young officer and threatened with court martial. I submit to your Lordships that if it is made quite clear to Germany now that the policy of His Majesty's Government is that any action which is taken against British troops or British equipment will be severely punished in some such way as I have said, then those instances will be few, but if it is merely said that that must be left to the military authorities on the spot I submit to your Lordships that that is not really taking a full sense of responbility. I go further and say that that would be lacking in courage because that may mean that not the lives of those in the British Government but the lives of British troops, who are acting under their orders and fulfilling the duties which are laid upon them by His Majesty's Government, will be imperilled. I submit that what I state in my Motion is necessary in order that Germany realize that she has been beaten, and that she has to be dealt with with severity although with justice. I beg to move the Motion which stands in my name.

3.34 p.m.

LORD WOOLTON

My Lords, your Lordship's will allow me in the first place I am sure to thank the noble Earl for the very kindly things he said at the beginning of his speech when he welcomed me to an office he himself has adorned. If he will allow me to say so, it was his influence when he was Lord President of the Council and was interested in scien- tific research that first helped me so considerably when I was Minister of Food to use the scientific resources of this Government. I am very grateful to the noble Earl for the welcome he gave me and I hope I shall fulfil the duties of the office as adequately as he did.

As to the subject raised to-day, I am not quite sure whether I am going to give complete satisfaction to the noble Earl. I thought I was going to be able to do so until I heard his speech. Quite obviously I cannot from these Benches deal with hypothetical questions as to what might happen. Let me say this, however, that there is no tendency and no intention on the part of His Majesty's Government of any softening regarding the treatment of Germans, particularly of Germans who as he indicated may proceed to try to inflict damage on British troops. The instrument of surrender governs the relations of the Allied authorities with Germany. It in no way hampers the Allies in dealing with such cases as the noble Earl has in mind. The terms of surrender empower the Allied representatives in the case of the failure of the German authorities or of the German people to fulfil the obligations imposed upon them to take whatever action is considered necessary. The Allied authorities have therefore a completely free hand. They are restricted only by the usages and customs of war which we have observed throughout the war. The Allied authorities will, therefore, be as free to deal with the situation envisaged by the noble Earl as any military commander is in the midst of battle. I hope that that reply will satisfy your Lordships. I hope it will satisfy the noble Earl too, but I am not quite sure that it will. All I can say is that that is as far at this stage as I can go.

3.36 p.m.

EARL STANHOPE

My Lords, I think on the whole I am satisfied with my noble friend's answer. It depends very much on what is meant by the "usages of war." That is a very elastic term, as all your Lordships know. But I trust that it will be made quite clear to the German people that that is also the policy of His Majesty's Government and of His Majesty's Opposition as well, and that it will be made clear in the speeches to be made in various places throughout the country in future. I imagine there are no Papers to be laid and I only put that down in order that I might have the right of reply. Therefore with your Lordships' leave I beg to withdraw the Motion.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.