HL Deb 29 May 1945 vol 136 cc246-59

2.43 p.m.

LORD VANSITTART had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government whether they will take the initiative in proposing to the Allied Governments the inclusion in the terms imposed upon Germany of an Article providing that a permanent Inter-Allied Committee of Scientists should be established to examine and control, and if necessary to prohibit the use by Germany of, any scientific discovery or invention considered dangerous to the safety of mankind; and to move for Papers.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I venture to think that this Motion speaks for itself. I would suggest that the Prime Minister's last war review speaks for it even more loudly. In the last war the ingenious barbarians sprang gas upon us. That was a prelude. There was an insufficient answer to that. In this war we have had the V1 and the V2. There was only a still more insufficient answer to the V1, and the V2 found no answer at all, or rather it would be fairer to say that the answer was the same as for V3, the multiple long-range artillery described by the Prime Minister which was destined to endow us with five shells per minute. The remedy found was the old-fashioned one of conquering the sites—that is to say, the answer of infantry and not of science. Even that remedy will not always be available, because ranges increase and sites recede. Indeed, the ranges, in a very short while, may be almost unlimited. Even with short ranges we were very nearly too late. If the V1 and the V2 had been brought into action one year sooner they would probably have made an end of this island, and if they had 'been brought in some years sooner, that is at the beginning of the war, they might well have meant the end of civilization. Therefore, in dealing with a nation that is periodically homicidal, I think no precaution is excessive.

All precautions are indispensable, because without them I think the end might well be the end of an American fairy story which we read when we were very young. No doubt that story was written with an inkling of Reno because they lived happy ever after for quite a little while. I say that because destructive science has got out of hand. German science, like German religion, German economics, German pedagogy, has been very largely militarized and unless we keep a firm hand on it we shall very likely have the V10 in less than ten years. It is not my purpose to paint lurid pictures of cities dissolved by pressing a button, though I suppose that is now within the bounds of possibility. We have had one lesson and it will be our own fault if we have another.

I have said that this Motion speaks for itself, but there is one point which I think needs a little explanation. This Motion is destined not only to control German science, but to control the grant by any country, Allied, neutral or ex-neutral, of permission to Germany to use any apparatus or device, or discovery, or invention of a potentially dangerous character, developed elsewhere. I lay stress on the necessity of this multilateral assent. Your Lordships will see that that makes the ground a great deal wider, because if that is accepted it means that no nations in future shall have secrets from each other in this lethal sphere. I feel that is very necessary and I press this multilateral aspect because after the last war a great number of the Allies and the neutrals in varying degrees took part in the re-arming and financing of our late enemies. We want no more of the unilateral. I submit that science must be linked for self-preservation and not destruction. I submit that we can afford no other solution except that of pooling. We have already a very happy example of pooling between the British Commonwealth and the United States. That takes place among the combined Chiefs of Staff. I suggest we might carry that further and that all-in pooling for all in the future should be brought about through the Military Staffs Committee which is to advise the new Security Council.

What exactly does all this involve? It involves a good deal, and I submit that a good deal is a good deal better than another raw deal. It involves control of all German laboratories, both industrial and university. That in turn involves the use of an extensive and intensive intelligence service which must be drawn from all the Allies. I mention that particularly because your Lordships will remember that twice in this House I have spoken against the idea of a quadruple monopoly, if I may so put it. I think that very happy results would follow in the field of intelligence if it were inter-allied, because you could draw upon very valuable resources. It would be most inadvisable to ignore them. I want intelligence to be linked in exactly the same way as science. Over and above that we should have, I think, a body of civil inspectors on the lines recently suggested by the President of Harvard University, Dr. Conant. And I would like to take that a bit further and suggest that this civil inspectorate might, in due course, become a world inspectorate in order to guard against development, or over-development, of secret devices. I am very well aware that no clause of this kind has yet figured in any treaty. That is all the more reason why it should figure in the present one, or rather in the ultimate one. The failure of past settlements, I submit, makes it necessary that we should contemplate innovations. There will always be need for new measures in a new world so long as man's destructive ingenuity outruns at its present prodigious pace his ability to eliminate his more primitive elements.

I have seen that, according to a Notice on the Paper, there is to be a discussion in this House to-morrow on "directed missiles," and I am not sure whether what has been said earlier to-day involves withdrawal of that Motion or not. But I should be very sorry if the noble Lord who is to put that Motion were to find that, by reason of anything I have said to-day, part of his thunder had been, I will not say stolen, but accidentally anticipated. I will say this: I believe, in all sincerity, that the Motion which I am putting is one of the most important factors in relation to the future, perhaps the most important one. If something on these lines be not accepted, I would predict, with the same absolute certainty with which I predicted this war, that in a short while the nations may find themselves engaging in secret armaments races of a far more terrifying character than any of their overt or semi-overt predecessors. I hope that your Lordships will not think that I am taking an over-grave view of this matter, but I think it only right that the House should know that a Motion on exactly similar lines is going to be introduced very shortly into the Parliaments of a number of our Continental Allies. I hope, therefore, that we shall give them a good lead to-day. Other minds that speak with some authority are also moving on the same lines. For example, the well-known American expert Mr. Fielding Elliot. He has recently written an admirable article entitled Science and Foreign Policy which follows very much on these lines. I will submit to your Lordships his conclusion on this matter; if you think the words are exaggerated I would ask you to bear in mind that they are his and not mine. He says that failing a solution on these lines the human race and all its works will be wiped out in blood and fire. I beg to move for Papers.

2.54 p.m.

LORD STRABOLGI

My Lords, I find myself in the pleasant position of agreeing with practically everything that has fallen from the lips of the noble Lord. That, I hope, will be as refreshing to him as it is to me. We have not always seen eye to eye, but I think that to-day he is, if he will allow me to say so, batting on a very good wicket. My noble friends on these Benches ask me to express our point of view concerning the undoubtedly most important subject which Lord Vansittart has introduced to your Lordships this afternoon. I presume that his Motion should be read as including Japan in the future. I imagine that he desires that there should be set up immediately an Inter-Allied Committee of Scientists to deal with Germany, and I hope that Lord Cherwell, who, I understand, is going to reply for the Government, will be able to give us some useful and satisfactory information about that matter this afternoon.

I hope and believe that as soon as we are in a position to do it the same procedure will be applied to Japan. I understand that in the last phases of the European campaign, our German enemies were careful to fit out some long-range submarines and send them to Japan laden with plans and blueprints for various secret weapons. They also sent to Japan a number of key designers and some of the most brilliant German inventors employed by the Messerschmitt outfit. I sincerely hope that these submarines were intercepted, but the Germans no doubt made earlier attempts to get information to Japan for the purpose of further mischief, and I dare say that some, at any rate, of it managed to get to Japan before the last phase of the war. The Japanese are very good imitators. I do not think that they are very good initiators or inventors, but if the Germans have shown them the way they will develop these devilish implements, which have been described by the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, to our hurt and discomfort. Certainly in the future I presume there will be some sort of scientific control over Japanese laboratories and chemical works and schools of invention exercised as proposed with regard to Germany.

I understand that I have interpreted the noble Lord's views aright so far. I also understand him to propose that in future the discoveries of this kind, and other far-reaching scientific discoveries, should be published to the world. That is an idealistic proposal. We have the same sort of thing, of course, with regard to medical discoveries. For many years now any surgeon or physician discovering a new cure, a new drug, or a new method has been in honour bound to publish it to the world—and always does so—for the use of the profession of healing in all nations. Could not that system be extended to other scientific discoveries, some of which, of course, have a high commercial value? This would be admirable if it can be done. We could have a permanent committee on awards to inventors not only for a war but in peace-time, and remunerate inventors of useful discoveries suitably instead of leaving them to wrestle with city sharks and financiers in endeavours to get their inventions exploited. Sometimes, I believe, it is the city people who win in these struggles, and sometimes it is the inventors. I think that Lord Cherwell will agree that the rewards for inventors would be better under a system of public awards. Could knowledge of these inventions be pooled and made available for industry all over the world? I know that my noble friends on this side of the House would support that. It is idealistic, but I hope that we shall do it and that we shall be able to persuade other nations to do the same.

I have here a most interesting report from the American Office of War Information dated as long ago as May 6, 1943, in which is described the activities of the Custodian of Enemy Properties in the United States. I do not know if my noble friend Lord Vansittart is aware of this information but, even by the date which I have mentioned, the American Custodian, who appears to be most active and most efficient in rounding up enemy properties and interests in the United States, was able to report that he had a total of 41,077 patents, patents pending and patent applications owned by enemy nationals and nationals of enemy-occupied countries, covering inventions in every field of applied science. These have all been vested in and are now under the control of the Custodian. He goes on to explain how he had many of the German nationals in the United States who were posing as scientists and technicians arrested for being, undoubtedly, agents of the Nazi Party and so on. Indeed, the Custodian of Enemy Property in the United States seems to have done a very good job, and I have no doubt that the similar Department here acted promptly, and I hope ruthlessly, in the same way. I should like to ask whether we obtained the information gathered in that way in the United States and whether we communicated to the United States the information which we discovered in rounding up German patents and German undertakings in this country, because that would be a beginning of this pooling which would be helpful for the future.

With regard to the future of German science: I notice that the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, accepts the probability that there will be scientific research going on in Germany at some time in the future. There will be chemists working in laboratories and engineers delving into scientific developments. I do not see how that can be avoided. I have heard the proposal put forward that no German university should be allowed to teach anything but the Classics and ancient languages, and that no chemists or engineers or metallurgists should be allowed to graduate in Germany. I do not think that that is Practicable; I think that that is as Utopian as the Morgenthau plan for confining Germany to agriculture and pastoral pursuits, and I presume that Lord Vansittart does not think that that is practicable either. I do not think that you can prevent the young Germans of the future, if they are so minded, from experimenting and carrying out researches and trying to develop new inventions and new discoveries; and I am glad to hear from his speech that Lord Vansittart recognizes that. There is no reason, however, why we should not keep an eye on them and control them, and that is broadly the proposal which the noble Lord makes.

The noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, would, however, like to have a worldwide inspectorate, so that we could be informed in time of dangerous discoveries which could be turned to dangerous uses against the whole of humanity. I do not know what the views of the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, are on that. I have watched the proceedings at San Francisco very carefully, and have seen all sorts of proposals for the world-wide regulation of labour conditions and so on, but I have not seen any proposal for a world-wide inspectorate of scientific discovery. It could be done, and it might be done if the nations draw closer and closer together in co-operating for peaceable purposes and for their common good and advantage; but I think that a good deal of public education will be required in advance. The proposal shocks even me, and I am an internationalist in these matters, in peace-time at any rate.

There are two further observations which I should like to make. First, I detected symptoms of a small mistake in Lord Vansittart's brilliant argument—the idea that it is the sudden acquisition of some frightful new weapon which encourages wars. With great respect, I do not think that that is the case. I do not think that wars are made because someone discovers some terribly lethal poison gas or a new kind of rocket. I believe that wars come from quite different causes; at any rate I think it is very doubtful whether the fact that the Germans thought that they had some wonderful new weapons encouraged them to go into this war. They went into this war for quite other purposes, and the fact that they had weapons like the magnetic mine and the acoustic mine (which we had eighteen or twenty years before them) was only incidental. It is not the discovery of new weapons or new appliances which makes wars. I am sure I carry the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, with me when I say that. You can blame the scientists for allowing their talents to be prostituted for the use of the war-makers, but you cannot blame the scientists for making the wars. It is the war-makers who make the wars, and they coerce or persuade or bribe the scientists into helping them. You may say, "More shame to the scientists," but there it is.

My last observation is this. I hope that Lord Vansittart's proposal is going to be put into force very quickly, and that it will have the most powerful support of the Governments of the great Allies; because the danger which I see—and I dare say that Lord Vansittart, with his wide knowledge of this question, shares my apprehension—is that certain big busines interests in the United States and in this country, who have been very glad in the past to work hand in glove with leaders of the German cartels and monopolies, will, after a time, when things have settled down, seek to make friends again with their old associates. There have been bitter complaints already in the American Congress of the revelation that certain of the leading cartels in the United States were deliberately preserving the interests of their opposite numbers, so to speak, in Germany in certain overseas markets; and, as surely as we are in this Chamber, in a little time, unless prevented, these same big business interests, who have no prejudices and no patriotism where money-making is concerned, will endeavour once more to make the same sort of arrangements with the German scientists, the German inventors, and the German financiers who exploit the inventions and scientific discoveries, as before. That is the danger. If Lord Vansittart's proposed Inter-Allied Committee of Scientists will stop that kind of thing and prevent the making of new arrangements between the old cartels—the machinery is still in existence in Switzerland for some of these arrangements, and could be brought into use at once—I believe that one of the possible causes of a future revival, underground and in secret, of German war-making power can be avoided.

3.10 p.m.

THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD CHERWELL)

My Lords, Lord Vansittart has gone, if I may say so, a good deal beyond the terms of his Motion in making his proposals for an inspectorate for all the nations of the world; and the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, has also divagated from the original terms in discussing matters of patent law and cartels and so forth. I think Lord Vansittart will know his old Department well enough to be sure that they will not wish me to enter into such very delicate questions at short notice, and I do not think that I should be prepared at this stage to say anything about the patent difficulties and other questions arising out of international cartels which were raised by Lord Strabolgi. I trust that your Lordships will be content if I keep to the terms of the Motion, which referred to an Inter-Allied Committee of Scientists who were to see that new scientific discoveries and inventions were not exploited by Germany.

I am sure that every member of this House is indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, for the unwearying determination which he displays in endeavouring to stop every loophole whereby Germany might evade the disarmament clauses of the final settlement. The loophole on which he has cast his bull's-eye to-day is certainly not one that we wish to neglect; but frankly I am not so concerned about the extent of the danger as he is, nor am I entirely convinced that the method which he proposes for dealing with it is the right one, but perhaps this is because the noble Lord and I attach somewhat different meanings to the word "science." I, and I think most of my colleagues, draw a distinction between pure science and its applications, which we prefer to describe as engineering. Now in pure science, from whose discoveries of course new methods in engineering often—indeed ultimately always—derive, Germany, far from being ahead, is in my view definitely behind the leading Allied Powers. Forty, thirty or indeed twenty years ago this was not true. The German universities could vie with any centres of learning in the world. But when they decided to expel all the Jews and the half-Jews and quarter-Jews or anybody who had married a member of one of these unhappy categories, it was amazing what an exodus occurred.

Göttingen, for instance, which had led the world in my own subject of physics and in mathematics, sank within a year below the level of even a second-rate uni- versity, and the same sort of thing happened in almost all the university laboratories in Germany. The Nazis, of course, retaliated by pillorying modern physics as a Jewish excrescence on the true Aryan outlook and promoting good party members with a smattering of the subject to the vacant posts. As a result, not only has the subject made no progress, but very few young men capable of lifting it again to a civilized level have been trained.

It may be asked, as I think Lord Vansittart suggested, what about the various new weapons the Germans have produced, their Radar and other devices with which we have become only too painfully well acquainted. It is, I think, fair to say that not one of these weapons involved any new scientific principle. They were creditable engineering achievementh very suitable to the purpose for which they were intended, but nothing more. The reason for this is quite simple. Despite their failure to appreciate learning and their preference for the coarse, rude material aspects of life, the Nazis had enough sense to realize the importance of engineering. German engineering has for long been of a very high standard, due, I believe, largely to their methods of training. They have long realized that engineering cannot be treated just as an appendage in an ordinary university. All the ancillary subjects have to be taught with a bias towards technical applications. When the Nazis came into power there were no fewer than ten Politechnica with 1,600 professors and lecturers and 20,000 students. These Politechnica ranked in every way as equal to the universities, their degrees counted socially and otherwise as of equal status, and nobody who was aiming at an engineering degree would have dreamt of going anywhere else. Arriving from school with a sound knowledge of elementary mathematics, physics and chemistry, it is not surprising that engineers of the highest possible grade were turned out in vast numbers after three or four years of this intensive training.

Whether the crude materialistic outlook we deplore in Germany is in any way connected with this type of education I need not examine, but there is no doubt that they produce in this way large numbers of men capable of turning their hands to any technical problem and providing an adequate and very often an ingenious solution to it. Take, for instance, the case of Radar. Everybody had known for fifty years that a metal object scatters electro-magnetic waves. When it became urgent to detect aircraft at night many nations applied this principle to the problem, and Radar naturally resulted. There can be no doubt, as the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, suggested, that our Radar is ahead of the Germans', but it would have been strange indeed if the very competent German engineers had not produced something workable, and indeed, as our air crews would agree, something by no means despicable.

I venture these preliminary observations because I think they have some bearing on the Motion brought before us by the noble Lord. He wishes us to prohibit "the use by Germany of any scientific discovery or invention considered dangerous to the safety of mankind." At what stage would the scientific committee have been expected to intervene, say, in the case of wireless waves? When Clerk Maxwell predicted them more than sixty years ago; or when Hertz proved then existence a few years later; or when Marconi showed that they could be put to commercial use; or when they were employed to save ships at sea at the beginning of this century; or when they gave us broadcasting twenty years ago? It is very difficult when a new discovery is made to foresee whether it will be used at all and, if so, whether it will be beneficial or dangerous to mankind. Who would have forecast when Elster and Geitel found—in 1887, I think it was—that a negatively charged plate of zinc lost its power under the influence of ultra-violet light, that this would have any practical importance? And who could have foreseen whether the beneficial developments would outweigh the harmful ones? On the one hand, of course, the talking films, which many low-brows at any rate would be sorry to forgo, derived from this particular discovery; on the other hand, this discovery lies at the root of almost every modern instrument for measuring the velocity of shells or bullets, a knowledge of which contributes greatly to the improvement of guns and rifles. Such instances could be multiplied indefinitely, but I hope I have said enough to show that this question is a very difficult one, which it is impossible to answer out of hand.

But I am anxious not to leave the impression that we do not realize its importance. The noble Lord last year made in this House the important suggestion that scientists should be associated with planning our methods for controlling German industry. His Majesty's Government appointed a committee of scientists not only to advise about this but also to consider the whole question of the future of German scientific research. I am told that their preliminary conclusions will shortly be ready, and the Government will certainly give the greatest weight to them. But obviously these proposals must be discussed with our Allies, who have ideas of their own on these subjects, and we hope that a common policy will be agreed. For some time now a scientific and technical staff has been attached to the Supreme Headquarters of the Allied Expeditionary Force—your Lordships will recognize Shaef under this imposing title—and they are there in order to examine and control German activities in these fields.

All German activities, including, of course, their scientific work, are and will be subject to a control by the occupying Powers exercised through the Control Commission. I am confident that so long as the control is maintained there will be little to fear from the recrudescence of German science or the misapplication of scientific discoveries. As to the long-term control, it would, I think, be premature for His Majesty's Government to undertake at this moment to make any specific proposals to the Allies to be embodied in the final peace terms. It is difficult to-day to form any impression of what Germany will look like when peace comes to be signed and what kind of permanent control will be the most convenient and effective. But the Government most certainly intend to ensure that scientists will continue to play their full part not only in disarming Germany but in guarding against any future dangers from that quarter. The long-term arrangements for preventing German secret rearmament have many aspects. The control of scientific research is only one of them and clearly all the controls must be worked out so as to fit altogether to form a coherent whole. I hope I have said enough to convince the noble, Lord that our objectives are the same and that we fully intend to take such steps as may be found most efficacious to achieve the aims he has in mind, even though I am riot able to promise to-day to adopt the exact measures he has proposed. I trust, therefore, he will be satisfied with this assurance, and in the circumstances will not press the Motion on the Paper.

3.20 p.m.

LORD VANSITTART

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, for his support. One part of my proposals he seemed to think a little too idealistic and I therefore would just like to say a few words explaining it in a little greater detail. It would obviously be no good at all preventing the Germans from developing lethal weapons at home if they could get them from abroad very easily. Your Lordships will remember that after the last war, for example, Krupps took immediate refuge in Bofors in Sweden, and that during the pre-war period Doenitz established an experimental submarine station in Spain and other makers of lethal devices resorted to the Netherlands, and so on. It would be no good whatever preventing manufacture of these things in Germany if they could get them elsewhere.

Lord Strabolgi mentioned that there had been 40,000 applications for patents in the United States. That is perfectly true. That happens to be an Allied country. But during the past year there were 8,000 similar applications in Sweden alone, and if you are going to prevent the Germans from getting, either from Allied or neutral countries, the same kind of devices which we shall be endeavouring to stop them developing at home, it follows that the Allies and neutral countries, in consulting whether those devices shall be permitted, will have to reveal those secrets to each other. That is where my proposal is a practical one. They would have to do that to enforce the prohibition in Germany. It follows automatically. That is very different from the impression I perhaps erroneously conveyed to the noble Lord that I wished those secrets all to be published to the world. I think there must be international consultation on them; that will follow automatically.

Turning to what the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, said, I naturally should accept entirely his definition of the distinction between science and engineering. I also should not wish for a moment to challenge his description of the very low level to which the Germans have debased their science. On the other hand, it has produced some exceedingly unpleasant and lethal surprises. I also fully understand that on a very complicated subject like this the noble Lord cannot give me an answer offhand as to whether the specific measure that I have been recommending will be adopted or not. I am quite content that he should bring it to the attention of the Government as a very important recommendation among many others; and, as I pointed out when speaking earlier, the same recommendation is going to be made to other Allied Governments. Therefore this proposal, having thus been put into the pool, will come to their conjoint knowledge. If he will assure me to-day that it will receive full attention from the competent authorities, I should be the last person to press him to give a decision "off the bat" to-day. If I am correct in my interpretation, I shall therefore have great pleasure in withdrawing my Motion, reserving to myself naturally the right to revert to the subject again at some later date in the hope of being able to elicit some more definite answer.

LORD CHERWELL

I think I can give the noble Lord the assurance that this will be brought before the competent authorities.

LORD VANSITTART

In that case I have great pleasure in asking leave to withdraw my Motion to-day.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.