HL Deb 19 December 1945 vol 138 cc942-3

5.3 p.m.

LORD LLEWELLIN had the following question on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government how many persons were employed full-time in the fire services taken over by the National Fire Service, at the nearest convenient date prior to the taking over; how many persons are in the National Fire Service now, and what steps are being taken to reduce the latter number. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg leave to ask His Majesty's Government the question which stands in my name.

LORD WALKDEN

My Lords, the whole-time strength taken over by the National Fire Service in 1941 was about 97,000. It was later increased to 128,000 and is now about 35,000. The strength has been further reduced but it is not yet possible to state what will be the ultimate figure or on what date it will be reached.

LORD LLEWELLIN

I am very much obliged to the noble Lord. I should like to ask him two supplementary questions. Does the figure extend to the whole of Great Britain and Scotland as well, and do I understand from his reply that there were 97,000 full-time employees in the service of municipal fire brigades and that that has now been reduced to 35,000, or was it a figure for the general fire service?

LORD WALKDEN

I cannot say precisely whether Scotland is covered but the figures for Scotland would be very small. There are not so many people there.

LORD LLEWELLIN

And not so many fires.

LORD WALKDEN

It was in 1941 that the National Service was set up and as I said they numbered about 97,000 That would be all and sundry that they took over, merging into the Service. I cannot say if it was restricted to boroughs or particular types of public bodies but they got together 97,000.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

My Lords, I quite accept these figures and I realize that, having had something to do with the. Fire Service. I should like to know if the figures include Scotland. Perhaps the noble Lord would let me know at a later date.

LORD WALKDEN

I am informed that they do include Scotland.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

And the North of Ireland?

LORD WALKDEN

Yes.