HL Deb 08 November 1944 vol 133 cc911-25

12.32 p.m.

House again in Committee (according to Order):

[The LORD STANMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 21:

Power to extinguish highways over land acquired for purposes of this Part.

21.—(1) The Minister may by order extinguish any public right of way over land which has been acquired or appropriated and is for the time being held by a local planning or highway authority for the purposes of this Part of this Act, or which has been acquired by a Minister thereunder and is for the time being held for the purposes for which he acquired the land.

(3) Where on the application of a local planning or highway authority an order is made under this section extinguishing a public right of way, and at the time of publication of the notice required by the last preceding subsection there was under, in, upon, over, along or across the land over which the right of way subsisted any telegraphic line belonging to or used by the Postmaster-General,— (a) the power of the Postmaster-General to remove the line shall be exercisable notwithstanding the making of the order.

LORD WOOLTON moved, at the end of paragraph (a) in subsection (3), to insert: so, however, that the said power shall not be exercisable, as respects the whole or any part of the line, after the expiration of a period of three months from the date on which the right of way is extinguished unless before the expiration of that period the Postmaster-General has given notice to the local planning or highway authority of his intention to remove the line or that part thereof, as the case may be; (b) the Postmaster-General may by notice to the local planning or highway authority in that behalf abandon the said line or any part thereof, and shall be deemed, as respects the line or any part thereof, to have abandoned it at the expiration of the said period of three months unless before the expiration of that period he has removed it or given notice of his intention to remove it.

The noble Lord said: This clause has been discussed with the Post Office and with the County Councils' Association. I do not think it need take up very much of your Lordships' time. The effect of the provision of the Bill as it now stands is that the Postmaster-General retains permanently the right to remove a telegraph or telephone line on the stopping up of a highway under the clause, and moreover that he is entitled to recover the cost of the removal from the local town planning authorities or the highway authorities as the case may be. The effect of the Amendment is this. In the first place there is the limit of a three-month period in which the Postmaster-General may decide whether to exercise his powers. Secondly, if the Postmaster-General does not exercise those powers of removal, the apparatus vests in the local planning or highway authority and any obligation under the Telegraph Act shall cease to apply. Thirdly, the costs which the Postmaster-General is entitled to recover are limited to those incurred in providing a line in substitution of the old line and any necessary connexions that may be required.

Amendment moved— Page 29, line 36, at end insert the said words.(Lord Wooltom.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD WOOLTON

The next two Amendments are consequential. I beg to move they be agreed to.

Amendments moved—

Page 29, line 39, leave out from beginning to ("in",) line 43 and insert ("providing, in substitution for the line and any telegraphic line connected therewith which is rendered useless in consequence of the removal or abandonment of the line, a telegraphic line").

Page 29, Line 44, at end insert (d) where under paragraph (b) of this subsection the Postmaster-General has abandoned the whole or any part of a telegraphic line, it shall vest in the local planning or highway authority, and the provisions of the Telegraph Acts, 1863 to 1943, shall not apply in relation to the line or part in question as respects anything done or omitted after the abandonment thereof."—(Lord Wooltom.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 21, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 22 agreed.

12.36 p.m.

Clause 23 [Extinguishment of rights of way, and, rights as to apparatus of statutory undertakers]:

VISCOUNT FALMOUTH moved, at the end of the clause, to insert: (10) Where by reason or in consequence of the extinguishment of any right or the imposition of any requirement under this section, or of the operation of any provision of this Act, any apparatus used for the purpose of the carrying on of a statutory undertaking, or the whole or part of any asset or property used for that purpose and not purchased under the powers or for the purposes of this Act, is rendered useless or unavailable or unsuitable for use for that purpose, the provisions of subsection (8) of this section shall have effect as if the apparatus or asset or property or part thereof were apparatus of which the right of continuance or maintenance had been extinguished under this section and, in addition, the person carrying on the statutory undertaking shall be entitled to recover from the authority or Minister at whose instance or for whose benefit the right was extinguished or the requirement was imposed, or such other provision was put into operation, compensation to an amount equivalent to the cost of the provision and laying down or erection of the apparatus or of the provision of the asset or property or part thereof, less a reasonable sum in respect of depreciations of the apparatus. Any difference between the said person and the authority or Minister as to the amount of such depreciation shall be determined by an official arbitrator under, and in accordance with, the provision of the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919.

The noble Viscount said: The object of this Amendment is to deal with the position in which the statutory undertakers will find themselves under the Bill. The object of the Bill is to replan "blitzed" areas. Many of your Lordships will have seen the plans which are proposed dealing with these areas. The areas will be entirely different in lay-out to what they were originally. Many of the streets have been entirely obliterated and indeed many of the areas are designated for entirely different purposes to those for which they were used before they were "blitzed." The public utility authorities under old arrangements have laid down many miles of gas, water and electricity mains at very great expense. Those who have incurred that expense will lose the value of it under the Bill. One of the great problems in connexion with the supply of these utilities is the cost of distribution. No matter how cheaply you may generate your product, whether electricity, gas or water, the cost of distribution always remains very high; in fact one might say that the difference in cost between the laying of the cable and the electricity generated at a power station is doubled almost by the time the light reaches the consumer owing to the fact that the undertakers have to bear the enormous cost of this great network of distribution.

The object of this Amendment is to enable the utility undertakings to recover from the authority or Minister at whose instance these alterations are brought about a sum of compensation equivalent in amount to the cost of laying down or erecting apparatus or the provision of the asset or property or a part thereof, less a reasonable sum in respect of depreciation. The Government have been very generous in the way they have treated public utility undertakings in the various transactions that have taken place in connexion with this Bill, and I hope when the noble Lord in charge of the Bill comes to reply he will treat this Amendment in the same way as other proposals have been treated and consider it favourably.

Amendment moved— Page 32, line 13, at end insert the new subsection.—(Viscount Falmouth.)

VISCOUNT MERSEY

I would like to support what the noble Viscount has just said. The expense of re-laying gas mains at the present time and no doubt electric cables also is very great indeed. Your Lordships will readily understand what the large alterations the Bill proposes will mean in cost to the public undertakers.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I think your Lordships will appreciate that the point raised by my noble friend behind me supported by the noble Viscount opposite is an important and a very far-reaching one. It is not by any means peculiar to this particular Bill. Before statutory provisions are made it is necessary to consider very carefully the terms in which they are expressed. For instance, direct compensation for direct loss may be one thing, and if you are not careful you may use language which will let in claims of a most indirect kind. That cannot be done without our being sure what it is we are doing. There was, as no doubt noble Lords know, a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons in 1939 which discussed the breaking up of streets by statutory undertakers, and they made a Report which pointed out the difficulty, but at the same time indicated that in future something ought to be provided. I believe that since then the Solicitor-General has been good enough to take part on behalf of the Government in a conference with various interests about this matter before this Bill was introduced.

I am prepared to say on behalf of the Government that there is undoubtedly a serious claim to be considered here. On the other hand, I do not think it would be possible for us to accept this Amendment. I think certainly it would be quite wrong to provide for it in this special Bill. It is a wider thing than that. I would venture to ask my noble friend who has moved whether he would not feel that the best course, having in mind my assurance that we realize there is a difficulty here that has to be properly met, and met by some general legislation, after very full consideration of the proper provisions, would be to withdraw the Amendment and rely on that assurance.

VISCOUNT FALMOUTH

In view of what the noble and learned Viscount has said, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment. It is a most important point to which he has drawn attention. It is most desirable to reduce the coat of these various services as much as possible.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 23 agreed to.

Clause 24 agreed to.

Clause 25 [Relief of statutory undertakers from obligations rendered impracticable by exercise of powers of this Part]:

LORD WOOLTON

The next is a drafting Amendment, which I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 34, line 36, leave out ("they think") and insert ("he thinks").—(Lord Woolton.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 25, as amended, agreed to.

12.42 p.m.

Clause 26 [Provisions as to burial grounds]:

THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON moved, at the beginning of the clause, to insert: (1) Any consecrated land, whether or not including any building, which has been acquired or appropriated by a local planning authority for the purposes of this Part of this Act, or which has been acquired by a Minister thereunder, may, subject to the provisions of this section, be used in any manner, whether or not involving the erection, construction or carrying out, or maintenance, of any building or work—

  1. (a) by that authority or by any other person, if that use conforms with planning control, or
  2. (b) in the case of land acquired by a Minister, by him or on his behalf for any purpose for which he acquired the land,
notwithstanding any obligation or restriction imposed under ecclesiastical law or otherwise as respects such land:

Provided that the provisions of subsection (4) of this section shall have effect to the exclusion of the provisions of this subsection as respects consecrated land being or forming part of a burial ground.

(2) Any use of consecrated land authorized by the preceding subsection, and the use of any land, not being consecrated land, acquired or appropriated as therein mentioned which at the time of acquisition or appropriation included any church or other building used or formerly used for religious worship or the site thereof, shall be subject to compliance with the prescribed requirements with respect to the removal and re-interment of any human remains and the disposal of monuments or other memorials, and of fixtures and furnishings, and, in the case of consecrated land, subject to such provisions as may be prescribed for prohibiting or restricting the use of the land, either absolutely or until the prescribed consent has been obtained, so long as any church or other building used or formerly used for religious worship, or any part thereof, remains on the land.

(3) Any regulations made for the purposes of the last preceding subsection—

  1. (a) shall contain such provisions as appear to the Minister to be requisite for securing that any use of land which is subject to compliance with the regulations shall, as nearly as may be, be subject to the like control as is imposed by law is the case of a similar use authorized by an enactment other than this Act or by a Measure or as it would be proper to impose on a disposal of the land in question otherwise than in pursuance of an enactment;
  2. (b) shall contain requirements relating to the disposal of any such land as is mentioned in the last preceding subsection such as appear to the Minister requisite for securing that the provisions of that subsection shall be complied with in relation to the use of the land; and
  3. (c) may contain such incidental and consequential provisions (including provisions as to the closing of registers) as appear to the Minister to be expedient for the purposes of the regulations."

The right reverend Prelate said: I rise to move a very long Amendment, but I think I can introduce it in a very few words. The clause with which we are concerned deals with burial grounds, whether consecrated or unconsecrated. It is quite clear that if a burial ground is compulsorily purchased, some special steps have to be taken to safeguard the decencies in such a case. I pointed out on the Second Reading that for the first time, I think, a wide general power has been given by Parliament in this Bill to purchase by compulsion churches and church sites. There, again, it is quite essential that there should be safeguards, where such a purchase takes place, that the decencies, if I may so call them, shall be observed. It is very rare for a church to be purchased. It has been passible in the past, Jut every denomination has been perfectly free to make its own conditions in selling a church, and in the Church of England a consecrated building could be sold only on certain conditions which are laid down by Statute, which require that the building shall be demolished or, if not demolished, shall be restricted in its use, and so forth and so on.

The purpose of this Amendment is simply to insert in this Bill the normal safeguards that are taken by Statute law in the case of the private sale of a church, and the Amendment is so drafted that it refers not only to the buildings of the Church of England but to any religious building, and I speak on behalf of all denominations who are equally interested in this particular case. What it secures is that where the church is thus purchased the dead shall be properly removed, the furniture and fixtures shall be properly cared for and, if the denomination so requires, the building itself shall be demolished, or otherwise shall be used only for certain specified purposes. I think I need say no more than that. I think the Committee will agree that this is an obviously right Amendment and that it is necessary to avoid the possibility of some improper use of a consecrated building taking place.

Amendment moved— Page 34, line 45, at beginning insert the said new subsections.—(The Lord Bishop of London.)

LORD WOOLTON

I shall be glad to accept it.

LORD LATHAM

Might I inquire of the right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of London, whether, under this clause, if agreement could not be reached—I am willing to admit that that may be an unlikely circumstance—there is any procedure provided in this clause or otherwise so that the impasse can be resolved?

THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON

Does the noble Lord mean if agreement is not reached about the purchase of a church?

LORD LATHAM

About the conditions to which you refer.

THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON

I ought to have pointed out that, under the Amendment, the safeguards are secured by regulations of the Minister. That is what the Amendment requires, and the Minister, in making those regulations, shall see that all the proper safeguards are therein contained, including any required by Statute or Measure; and he is governed by those. There can be no failure to agree because the final word about what is to happen to a consecrated building which is to be purchased must remain with the denomination. It cannot stop the sale of it but, if it is purchased, it can say: "The church must now be demolished."

LORD LATHAM

Would that be the case if purchased under the compulsory purchase procedure?

THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON

That is what I am trying to make clear, that if a consecrated building is purchased compulsorily by a local authority, they cannot then do what they like with a consecrated building. They must be restrained from doing anything which is repugnant to the nature of the consecrated building and to the associations gathered round it. It may be that the denomination would say: "We are willing for this to be used as a public library;" but if they feel any insecurity that it might be used for a funfair, a meat market, or what-not, then they have the power to say: "It must be demolished when bought."

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD WOOLTON

The next is purely a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 35, line 5, at beginning insert ("in the case of land acquired or appropriated by a local planning or highway authority")— (Lord Woolton.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON

The next two Amendments are consequential on the previous Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendments moved—

Page 35, line 19, leave out ("the proviso to the") and insert ("subsection (2) of this section and the proviso to the last").

Page 36, line 15, leave out ("the reference") and insert ("references").—(The Lord Bishop of London.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD WOOLTON

This is merely a drafting point. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 36, line 22, after ("planning") insert ("or highway").—(Lord Woolton.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON

The next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 36, line 27, leave out from ("such") to ("of") in line 28 and insert ("obligation, restriction or enactment as is mentioned in subsection (1) or (4)").—(The Lord Bishop of London.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 26, as amended, agreed to.

LORD WOOLTON moved, after Clause 26, to insert the following new clause:

Authorization of use and development of open spaces, etc. acquired for purposes of this Part notwithstanding statutory restrictions. ( ).—(1) Any land being, or forming part of, a common, open space or fuel or field garden allotment, which has been acquired or appropriated by a local planning or highway authority for the purposes of this Part of this Act, or which has been acquired by a Minister thereunder, may be used in any manner, whether or not involving the erection, construction or carrying out, or maintenance, of any building or work,—

  1. (a) by that authority or by any other person, if that use conforms with planning control,
  2. (b) in the case of land acquired by a Minister, by him or on his behalf for any purpose for which he acquired the land, notwithstanding anything in any enactment relating to land of that kind, including any enactment, whether public general or local or private, by which any such land is specially regulated.

(2) In this section—

  1. (a) the expressions "common", "open space" and "fuel or field garden allotment "have the meanings assigned to them respectively by Section thirteen of this Act;
  2. (b) the reference to conformity with planning control shall be construed in accordance with subsection (3) of Section twenty of this Act, with the substitution for references therein to anything done as therein mentioned of references to any use of land, whether or not involving the doing of any such thing.

(3) Nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing any act or omission on the part of a local planning authority, or of any body corporate, in contravention of any limitation imposed by law on the capacity of such a body by virtue of its constitution, or as authorizing any act or omission on the part of any person that is actionable at the suit of any person on any ground other than contravention of any such enactment as is mentioned in subsection (1) of this section."

The noble Lord said: I understand there is some doubt as to whether land that is now an open space and has been acquired can be used by the planning authority on condition that elsewhere they provide another open space, and the purpose of this clause is to make it quite clear that such is the case.

Amendment moved— Page 36, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Wooltom.)

LORD LATHAM

I wish to enter a caveat: I assume that the acceptance of this new clause will not prejudice the reconsideration of an Amendment which has been handed in and which is to be dealt with on the Report stage in regard to the Green Belt.

LORD WOOLTON

No.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clauses 27 and 28 agreed to.

12.50 p.m.

Clause 29:

Control of development carried out by interim development authorities and responsible authorities.

(5) The Minister may make regulations with respect to the manner in which applications for consent may be made under this section, and with respect to the granting of consent thereunder, and in particular provision may be made by any such regulations— (a) for dispensing, in relation to any such development as may be specified in the regulations, with the necessity for such consen[...]

LORD WOOLTON moved, in paragraph (a) of subsection (5), to leave out "specified in" and insert "determined by or under." The noble Lord said: Under the subsection as drafted the regulation must specify the development for which the dispensation from the need to obtain the Minister's consent is granted. Whilst such dispensation as regards my particular class of development might normally be justified, particular instances within a class might arise where the Minister's consent would be desirable. By this Amendment we hope to give directions to secure that result.

Amendment moved— Page 39, line 31, leave out ("specified in") and insert ("determined by or under").—(Lord Woltom.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 29, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 30 [Power to suspend planning schemes and reimpose interim development control]:

LORD WOOLTON

The Amendment to this clause is a drafting Amendment to secure that the "material date" for the purpose of a revoking or varying scheme shall be consistent with the date on which the interim development provisions come into operation on the suspension of the scheme which is being revoked or varied. The importance of the "material date" is that if development is carried out thereafter without permission, compensation is not payable if it is removed or altered thereafter in contravention of the planning scheme.

Amendment moved— Page 4o, line 31, leave out ("of the order") and insert ("on which the order was registered as aforesaid").—(Lord Woolton.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3o, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 31:

Obligation to purchase war-damaged land where development permission refused.

(2) Where notice is given to a local planning authority requiring them to purchase an interest in pursuance of the preceding subsection, the authority shall as soon as may be notify to the Minister that the notice has been given, and also whether in their opinion the conditions precedent to the valid giving of the notice are fulfilled, and thereupon the Minister—

and subject to any direction given under this subsection the notice shall take effect at the expiration of the said period of two months:

Provided that if the owner in question or the local planning authority or the interim development authority (if that authority is not the local planning authority) so desires or desire the Minister shall before deciding whether or not to give a direction under this subsection afford to the owner and the authority or authorities an opportunity of appearing before and being heard by a person appointed by the Minister for the purpose.

(10) References in this Act to land which has been acquired and is for the time being held by a local planning authority for the purposes of this Part of this Act include references to land acquired by such an authority under this section which has not for the time being been appropriated by them for any such purpose as is mentioned in subsection (3) of Section seventeen of this Act.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to insert after paragraph (c) in subsection (2): (d) if he is satisfied that, having regard to the probable ultimate use of all or any part of the land as respects which the notice is to take effect, it is expedient so to do, may direct that as respects the said land or part thereof the authorization to purchase and notice to treat referred to in the preceding subsection shall be deemed to have been given and served respectively to and by such county council as may be speciefid in the direction in lieu of the local planning authority;

The noble and learned Viscount said: The reason for the decision of the local planning authority, on an application for permission to carry out development in the case of a war-damaged property, may be some requirement of the county council; for example, where the war damaged building is on the lines of a proposed new road the county council would not wish the building to be restored. This Amendment has been put down really in view of the representations of the County Councils' Association. They pointed out that it really would be better in such a case that the county councils should acquire direct, and that is what the Amendment provides. I think that is not open to challenge.

Amendment moved— Page 42, line 13, at end insert the said new paragraph (d).—(The Lord Chancellor.)

LORD LATHAM

I take it from what the noble and learned Viscount has said that this casts no additional obligation upon a planning authority, but gives them apparently an additional right.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

Yes, I think that he is right.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in the proviso of subsection (2), to leave out all words after "Provided that" and insert: Where the Minister proposes to give a direction under this subsection he shall give notice of the proposal, with such particulars as appear to him requisite, to the persons concerned, that is to say,—

  1. (i) as respects a direction under paragraph (a), (b) or (c) of this subsection, the owner in question, the local planning authority and the interim development authority (if that authority is not the local planning authority),
  2. (ii) in the case of a direction under paragraph (d) of this subsection, the local planning authority and the county council in question,
and if any of the persons concerned desire to make representations with respect to the proposed direction the Minister shall determine whether or not to give the direction until he has afforded to the persons ,concerned an opportunity of appearing before and being heard by a person appointed by him for the purpose. Where the Minister gives a direction under paragraph (d) of this subsection he shall as soon as may be give notice thereof to the owner in question.

The noble and learned Viscount said: This proposal partly improves the machinery and partly it is consequential on what we have done. It provides expressly for notice of the proposed directions under paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of Clause 31 (2) as well as for notice of the direction under the new paragraph (d). The proviso to subsection (2) will not require the Minister to communicate with owners or authorities unless he thinks he is going to give a direction. The owner and the interim development authority are not to be entitled to a notice of direction under paragraph (d), as they are not concerned in that matter. Otherwise we should have unnecessary notices given to people who are not interested.

Amendment moved— Page 42, line 27, leave out from ("that") to end of line 23 and insert the said proviso.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD WOOLTON

The next Amendment is consequential.

Amendment moved— Page 44, line 1, leave out ("planning ").—(Lord Woolton.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after subsection (9), to insert: (10) A county council may contribute towards the expenses incurred by a local planning authority under this section, and Section forty-nine of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932 (which provides for the manner in which expenses of county councils under that Act are to be defrayed and confers on county councils power to borrow), except the first proviso thereto, shall apply to expenses incurred by a county council under this subsection as it applies to such of their expenses as are mentioned in the said Section forty-nine.

The noble and learned Viscount said: This is a useful Amendment, and again I think the suggestion came from the County Councils' Association. The effect will be that a county council will be empowered to contribute towards the expenses incurred by a local planning authority under the clause and to borrow money for the purpose. Where the ground of the decision on the interim development which made a contribution necessary was for a purpose of the county council, the local planning authority might very often be unwilling itself to bear the cost. So the proposition is that the person who calls the tune shall pay the piper.

Amendment moved— Page 44, line 7, at end insert the said new subsection.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The next Amendment is only drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 44, line is, leave out ("for the time being been") and insert ("be disposed of by them, or").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 31, as amended, agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to transfer Clause 31, as amended, to follow Clause 10. The noble and learned Viscount said: It is thought better to move the clause back in the Bill.

Amendment moved— Transfer the clause, as amended to follow Clause 10.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clauses 32 to 39 agreed to.

THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL)

My Lords, if it suits your Lordships' convenience, I suggest that we should adjourn for our luncheon interval and resume the sitting at two o'clock.

House resumed.

House adjourned at one o'clock and resumed at two o'clock.