AIR TRANSPORT.

HL Deb 20 October 1943 vol 129 cc213-53

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY rose to ask His Majesty's Government for a declaration of policy in relation to postwar air transport with special reference to the vital importance of the earliest possible development of Inter-Commonwealth and Empire air routes; and to move for Papers. The noble Marquess said: My Lords, I feel that I owe your Lordships an apology for bringing before you again almost identically the same Motion as I introduced on July 13. Your Lordships will remember that on that occasion there was some misunderstanding between the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, and myself. He was authorized to reply for the Government, and amongst his remarks he said that I had spent 85 seconds—I think that was the time he gave me—in addressing myself to the Motion which I had on the Paper. The noble Lord was quite correct. I had asked him about research and I can confine any remarks I have to make about research to less than 85 seconds now. I should like to ask what is being done about research. Our own activities in that direction are well known to everyone, but are guarded as a close secret. I hope the noble Lord who is to reply will be able to give us some information about the steps which are being taken in relation to research.

As your Lordships are aware, I have pressed this matter on more than one occasion, and the subject has been brought forward in another place, with the object of eliciting from the Government a reply in relation to policy. That is really what we want. We are always hopeful that the Government will be able to tell us the policy which they are pursuing in relation to what is called post-war aviation. I think your Lordships will agree with me when I say that all the replies which we have received—and I should be the last to attach blame to any individual—have been very unsatisfactory indeed. The noble Lord, Lord Sherwood, has replied on more than one occasion, and the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, has discharged that difficult and unenviable task with great eloquence and with that consideration which characterizes the discharge of his duties as Leader of your Lordships' House. Now we have another champion who has come forward to reply to this Motion in the person of the noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook. I would venture to welcome Lord Beaverbrook from the bottom of my heart. I am proud to think he is an old friend of mine. We have had a long association and I have always felt that Lord Beaverbrook possesses to a very high degree that quality of drive and determination and that capacity for getting things done which are so important in these days. I most sincerely hope that the sort of gloom which seems to affect Ministers who cross the sacred portals into the hierarchy will not affect my noble friend. We are accustomed to his exuberance when sitting on the other side of the House in a position of less responsibility and greater freedom, and I hope he will continue to show that exuberance now and will also inspire us by that exhilaration which has always characterized his speeches.

The replies which we have received have been by no means satisfactory, and I feel impelled to say—to use an old phrase which I think your Lordships know well, and which I have sometimes used before—"Tell me anything you like, but do not take me for a complete fool." I make a present to the noble Lord of that sentence. He may cast any aspersions he likes on my mental capacity, but I would venture to impress upon him that my friends and those with whom I am associated, some of whom perhaps, wrongly, credit me with greater power than I possess, are by no means fools. Innumerable pamphlets Have been brought out and endless representations have been made, but, so far as I can judge from the contacts I have made, those representations have practically fallen upon deaf ears. Although the last occasion on which I raised this matter was as long ago as July 13, I stand before your Lordships now without any further information than I had at that time, except, perhaps, on one particular point which I shall venture to allude to in a few minutes.

Though your Lordships are fully cognizant of the fact, I should like first of all to say that whatever representations we make, whatever words we use, whatever desires we express, they are not intended to interfere—and in my judgment they do not interfere—with our war effort. That effort naturally comes first. Everything must give way to the promotion of it, and nothing must be put forward which will in any way hinder the effort which is being made in support of our cause in so many parts of the world at the present moment. Bombing is invaluable and I would do nothing to hinder the putting into effect of our policy with regard to it. Nor would I suggest the diversion of the manufacture of aircraft from machines which are needed in that connexion. That applies to transport aircraft. We want transport aircraft, but those who are in charge of policy are the right persons to decide how far we can embark on the construction of transport machines, possibly with the effect of diminishing the production of our bombing aircraft. On that point I do not wish to express any opinion. I do, however, regret the necessity for repeatedly bringing up this matter, as I sometimes feel that if in the previous stages of our discussions the representatives of the Government could have given us a little encouragement, or some little idea that there was a concerted policy in their minds, these later debates need never have taken place. But it is incumbent upon us—in fact I feel, myself, that it is my duty—to make representations concerning what we want.

I am bound to say that I believe that one of our many difficulties has been the War Cabinet. I have the greatest regard for those Departmental Ministers who constitute the War Cabinet, but I think we have been made to realize that none of them really has executive authority to state in a definite way what is the Government policy on this question of post-war aviation. I have no personal quarrel with any member of the War Cabinet; far from it. But I have noticed latterly—I do not know whether it is due to references which I have made to the War Cabinet—that the Prime Minister in his speeches brings the War Cabinet more into the picture than he did before, and that when he is abroad we hear that every one of his actions is accepted and approved of by the War Cabinet. Perhaps that is done with a view to establishing the War Cabinet on a more important basis than that on which they have been established hitherto in the minds of the people of this country. I have in mind especially the statements which the Prime Minister made from Quebec. I think that I am entitled to say that when the Prime Minister returned from Quebec, Lord Beaverbrook immediately came into the picture. He was given duties to perform, and he will tell us to-day what those duties are. Certainly they are in connexion with this policy which we have been pressing in this House. Another matter which seemed to me very striking was that while the Prime Minister was in Quebec, although the crucial question of the coal shortage was in the minds of everybody here, nothing was done and nothing was said until Mr. Churchill came back and made a very valuable intervention in proceedings in the House of Commons. I would like to strengthen the War Cabinet. I wish that my noble friend Lord Beaverbrook was in the War Cabinet, if that would give him any additional authority. I am inclined to think, however, that the noble Lord, with his accustomed drive and determination, will probably achieve as much in the position which he now occupies whether he is in or out of the War Cabinet.

Since July 13, and even before that, we have heard nothing about post-war aviation. From the B.B.C. we hear nothing, and no messages are given to our people. One might imagine that post-war aviation was something relegated to the far-distant future. I am not aware that in any of the schools anything is done to educate the young idea as to this vast revolution which is taking place due to the developments in aviation. The Air Training Corps, of which I am proud to be a member, is the only effort in a juvenile atmosphere to deal with the matter at all. Those of us who are interested in post-war aviation are all busy men, and it is impossible for us to stand on the steps of Ministries trying to gain some information about what is being done. We have, however, the good fortune of being able to come to this House and express our opinion, and again I welcome the change which has occurred whereby, so far as; I am aware, Lord Beaverbrook is given authority to deal with this matter. My noble friend is no respecter of persons, and we well know that he has no patience with dilatory official methods. I do not think that he believes in the phrase "agreement in principle," and I do not think that fair words make any difference to him. I know that he will not give us promises unless he is quite certain that he can fulfil them, and I and my friends feel sure that something will now be done.

I must re-state what we want—and I speak not only for myself but for my friends. We want a statement of policy on Empire aviation. We want to know the policy of the Government in regard to international air lines. We want to know the position which the Government take up with regard to the monopoly, the one instrument chosen by the Government. Last, but by no means least, we want to hear whether the Government have made up their minds that civil aviation will be separated from the Air Ministry. With regard to Empire aviation, we have been gratified to learn that a Dominion Conference has been held here, presided over by my noble friend Lord Beaverbrook. That is indeed encouraging. We are glad that it has taken place. I do not know how far the noble Lord will be able to take us into his confidence to-day, and we fully realize the difficulties, but, as I am aware that he knows the anxieties which exist in our minds, we can only hope for the best. I feel that we should have what I would call an Empire Air Council, which would be in continuous session considering and dealing with all these matters on which so much depends. I should have felt more easy in my mind about the recent Conference over which the noble Lord presided if there had been present some of those who are in direct contact with air operations in the Dominions.

Perhaps the noble Lord can tell us what is the authority which deals with these matters. That is a difficulty which is in all our minds. There is a Committee which is presided over by Lord Brabazon, but we know nothing about the activities of that Committee. Questions in the House of Commons are replied to by the Air Ministry, but in this House we have the pleasure of listening to Lord Beaverbrook. That does not convey to the people of this country that there is some special authority for dealing with all these matters. I know that your Lordships will agree with me when I say that it is quite impossible to exaggerate the importance of post-war aviation and the position which this Empire will hold in that respect at the end of the war. This country—I regret to say—is not air-minded, and I do not feel that the proper steps are being taken to bring about a change in the mentality of our people. We know quite well that the whole country reveres and honours the exploits of the Royal Air Force, but I do not think that in the mind of the man in the street there is any connexion between the Royal Air Force and aviation as it may affect him in the future. I feel that if the noble Lord will himself broadcast, or use his authority to have this information spread throughout the country, a great step forward will have been taken.

I now come to the question of monopoly. We all know that the British Overseas Airways Corporation was established by Act of Parliament, and has been in existence since 1939. That represents the policy which has been pursued by the Government, the policy of having one official instrument. That does not seem to me to prevent the Government taking us into their confidence and telling us whether their policy in the future is going to follow the same rigid lines. If the noble Lord could tell us that it was in no way the desire of the Government nor part of their future policy that there should be one chosen instrument, a great deal of good would be done. The lack of any statement creates a feeling of uncertainty in the minds of all those who are very anxious to co-operate in this great work of post-war aviation, and, whether one calls it a direct or an indirect influence, it provides a very damping influence on all our designers in this country.

This raises the question of private enterprise, on which I do not propose to enter to-day. I am alarmed to find that the Government are so anxious not to tread on people's toes and to offend susceptibilities that they do not seem to attach that importance to private enterprise which the vast majority of the people of this country do attach to it, and which makes it one of the prime moving factors in America. In relation to the British Overseas Airways Corporation, I do not know whether the noble Lord is aware that Mr. Yarex was over here. He controls the West Indian Airways, and he has interests in Bolivia, Paraguay, Brazil, Chile and Nicaragua. Those interests have been sold to Mr. Luce and Mr. Kaiser. Our West Indian Airways are associated with the British Overseas Airways Corporation, and yet this tremendous undertaking has gone by the board without many people knowing anything about it at all. Perhaps the noble Lord can give us some information about that.

The next question is the separation of civil aviation from the Air Ministry. I have naturally considered this question very deeply. I have wondered whether in the future civil aviation should come under the Ministry of Transport or under the Board of Trade; and I feel that in view of the vast developments which are going on it will be necessary to have a Minister of Air Transport to whom all these great questions can be referred. I hope that my noble friend Lord Beaverbrook when he replies will realize that we are in contact with a very large number of people, and that these people are waiting for some encouragement from the Government and for a statement which will give some idea of the policy which the Government propose to pursue. I do not know whether the noble Lord has yet had time to study the many plans which are in existence in the minds and in the hands of many independent people who have an idea as to how the future of postwar aviation should be conducted.

I should like to say one short word about the great shipping interests. I have had several meetings and innumerable conversations with their representatives. I do not know whether the Government are in a position to-day to tell us how they view the possible activities of the shipping interests. I am continually asked questions about that. Although I have to say that I really know no more than anybody else about these matters, my reply is always "Go ahead. It has never been the habit of this country, or of any industry in this country, to wait for a lead from the Government. Produce your plan, estimate your capacity and carry on as your fathers carried on." We know quite well that the great shipping companies are the foundation of the prosperity of this country and the foundation of the British Empire. It is due to them, their resource and their pioneering instinct that the British flag has been planted all over the world. These great companies have the knowledge and the technique of transport, and it seems to me obvious that when transport and communications are to so great an extent to be turned over to the air, those people who are cognizant of all the difficulties of transport are the people who should take the major part in assisting the Government to carry out the policy which we all have in our minds. As I have said, there are various pamphlets in existence, all of them intensely interesting. I have no doubt your Lordships read the article in the Observer by Mr. Thornton, who is a member of the General Council of British Shipping, which showed very clearly the direction in which the shipping mind is turning.

Now I come to America, and whereas I can speak with a certain freedom, which is not allowed to people who are in more responsible positions, I am naturally not going to say anything of a critical nature. I admire the forceful appreciation by the Americans of the rapidly moving events in the world of aviation. There is bound to be competition. The world without competition would indeed be a sad place; its capacity and efficiency and its striving after perfection would indeed be at a low ebb. But I am not anticipating any trouble in this connexion. I am quite sure that, in accord with the views expressed by that great man, the President of the United States, co-operation can and will be developed between this country and America—and with Russia also—in connexion with all the great air lines throughout the world. In this country we have concentrated on fighters and bombers. We won the Battle of Britain, and I am not ashamed to go on repeating myself about that great feat which was performed in the early stages of the war, when we held the fort by ourselves for a year and more. It is necessary that we should take a foremost position in all the arrangements which will be made as time goes on. America has had the opportunity to build aircraft for post-war aviation requirements, and I think that if we look into the future, we shall see very clearly that a great many of the smaller countries will rely on American aircraft for the continuation of their own aviation, which they are not likely to neglect. We shall require American co-operation, and I am optimistic enough to believe that we shall get that co-operation. In view of the manner in which co-operation has been achieved throughout this war, I am quite convinced that when the demands of suffering humanity come to us in their volume and profusion, as they will do at no very distant date, that friendly co-operation between those great countries, which are capable of bringing relief to the millions of suffering people in the world, will continue on a smooth basis.

I would say this in connexion with Empire air transport, that, while we may depend to a very large extent on the assistance which America can give us, and while we shall utilize what we speak of as converted bombers for carrying out a certain part of that transport, still I should like to feel—and I should like the Government to express it as a very definite policy—that in five or six years, or whatever the term may be, Empire aviation will be served by Empire aircraft and Empire personnel. As I have said I am pinning my faith on Lord Beaverbrook. I know, and he knows better than we do, that he has a great task to perform, but what I can guarantee to him is an increasing support in this country for any definite policy which he adopts. The noble Lord may go to America. I do not know what his plans are, but I would venture to advise him that when he goes he should go with a policy and a plan. In his long experience he will have learnt that in whatever business he has had to transact, if he had a policy and a plan he was much more likely to achieve his object. The root of all our troubles in this country has been a lack of policy for a good many years past, and America has suffered from the same failing, as one can read in the very interesting book recently published by Mr. Lippmann. We have been confronted by countries which either because they nourished grievances or were moved by acquisitive characteristics or a spirit of aggression, had a policy and a plan hostile to ourselves, and we should have learnt our lesson because we had to meet their challenge without a policy and without plans. The British Empire can only maintain its world position if we have our policy and our plan and also if our statesmen have the courage and the wisdom of their forefathers to carry them out. I beg to move.

LORD BRABAZON OF TARA

My Lords, I am sure it will be generally agreed that we owe a debt of gratitude to the noble Marquess for raising this question again. What always surprises me now is the interest that is taken in aviation as a whole, be it military or civil. It seems to me only a few years ago that my noble friend Lord Stansgate and myself, in another place, alone in the whole Chamber spoke about aviation, but now I think the whole world realizes what an important part flying is going to play in the future world. In this House my noble friend Lord Londonderry has through his persistence alone introduced quite a new element into the situation: he has shifted Lord Beaverbrook from the Opposition Benches to the Ministerial Beach. That is a very considerable feat, and it will be within the recollection of your Lordships' House that when the noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook, was sitting here, he at times expressed some anxiety on the situation developing in the world and the Government's attitude to the question of a Second Front. He was very persistent on that subject, and we here thought that perhaps he interrogated the Government a little too closely. I should not like to-day to fall into the same mistake by asking him for any news on that delicate situation, but I should like to know whether, having joined His Majesty's Government, his conscience is quite clear on the matter. I do not know whether the Official Report can report a nod, but I hope your Lordships noticed the nod. I hope that the inclination of his Lordship's head will be reported throughout the world, up and down the Steppes of Russia and in Moscow, and that it will keep Dr. Goebbels awake at night and, when he sleeps, give him nightmares.

The situation wants to be made clear as to what Lord Beaverbrook's position is. He is Lord Privy Seal with, I understand, a special job to do. He is not taking over civil aviation. It would be a very regrettable thing if in future we were not to have those crystal clear windings-up by my noble friend Lord Sherwood on the various points we put to him on aviation in general, nor to have the resounding eloquence of my noble friend Lord Cherwell when he speaks to us on scientific matters. We may take it that aviation in general is taken over in this House now by the triumvirate which, on the Front Bench at this moment, is interrupted by the Leader of the House. I take it that the special job of Lord Beaverbrook is to deal with the international set-up of aviation as a whole throughout the world. It is obvious that, when you are taking on a vast job like that, it is as well to know what you think yourself, and it is good news to hear that there has been a conference and that a measure of agreement up to a certain point has been got from the constituent members of the British Commonwealth of Nations.

My noble friend Lord Londonderry raised some very difficult points on private enterprise, control, and that sort of thing, but these are questions to be answered by the Air Minister or his representative. The problem with which Lord Beaverbrook is charged is somewhat different— it is the broad world situation—and in that connexion certain important questions emerge immediately: "Can we fly over other people's country? Can we fly people into other people's country? And can we fly them out?" Then there is the tiresome question of what in shipping parlance is called cabotage, which refers to flying across somebody else's country—can you take people up or deposit them within it? All these are questions on which you may get agreement within the Empire, but on which other countries may refuse to agree.

I have no doubt some conclusions have already been arrived at, but there is a tremendous amount of talk about the post-war situation—if I may say so, a lot of loose talk. There is a lot of loose talk in America, and "loose" in this case is spelt "Luce". Here we have very grave suspicions that if we were not sending somebody with the astuteness of Lord Beaverbrook we might be tripped up in negotiations in America because one wants a long spoon when supping with Pan-Americans. There are one or two points with regard to world traffic which I hope Lord Beaverbrook will bear in mind in his negotiations. The great route of the world is going to be America—Europe. For at least three or four years it will not be possible to fly New York—London, and the reverse, as a regular route. There must be an aerodrome on the way. I do not say it cannot be done, but it cannot be done as a regular thing. Consequently, Newfoundland comes in as one of the most important places in the world because it is on the direct geodesic line. In Newfoundland the British Empire happens to possess the two most important bases in the world. Americans may talk about other places being important up and down the world, but there are no more important bases than Goose Bay and Gander in Newfoundland. I hope that the Government will see that these remain in Newfoundland's hands and are not parted with and given to any other Dominion. That is one of the most important matters on this particular question.

Many people hope and think that we may get into big civil aviation immediately after the war. We have not got the personnel. Americans very wisely put all their civil aviation personnel into uniform, and they have flying all over the world to-day what look like military machines and military personnel, but what are really civil personnel dressed up. Our Government are to be congratulated on doing the reverse—that is starting a Transport Command—but I hope it will be realized that when the war ceases the personnel of the Air Transport Command should be used for running civil air lines throughout the world. I do not think we should run down our own great company, the B.O.A.C. That company has been operating for a few years, but it has not had a chance to get going. It has been operating under considerable difficulties, and with a great lack of equipment. I have myself tremendous faith in General Critchley, who is now in charge. I am sure he will get the spit and polish and look after the general comfort of the passengers and make it, I am perfectly certain, a first-class show.

Now we come to that vexed question of machines. There indeed is the rub. It is true to say we have got one or two types which could be evolved from the bomber of to-day and which are pretty good. I hope they will not become known as converted bombers, because they are not really converted bombers but machines evolved from the bomber. Some of them are quite serviceable, but it is important that new machines and new engines should be thought of now. In that connexion we always say "We must not disturb the war effort" and "How cross America would be if we were to build such a machine." Transportation by air is either a war help or it is not. If transportation by air is not of military assistance to the war, why is America building so many transport machines? If it is of assistance to the war, why are we not building any? You cannot have it both ways. It is ridiculous that one country should devote all its resources to one particular type: of machine while another country builds another type which has post-war advantages. There is nothing, as far as I can see, which would not be helping the war if we concentrated a little more on transport machines than we have done in the past. There are Committes of experts to recommend the types of machines that will be wanted, but whatever such Committes may recommend and whatever the wisdom of their recommendations may be they cannot implement their recommendations. That is a matter entirely for the Government. It is the responsibility of the Government to see that there does evolve in time—and the sooner the better—some study and development of these transport machines which we hope one day may be of civil use.

I want to stress the importance of Lord Beaverbrook's work. Everybody is fond of acclaiming the future to-day, but there is a tendency, I think, to forget that if the plans and the efforts of so many are to be of any good the security of the world must be assured. The security of the world is wrapped up with this setup of aviation after the war, and the set-up of civil aviation is just as important as the military one. I hope the noble Lord will not look upon the job that he has taken on and is now doing as being an ad hoc job. It is a job which stretches far into the future and is going to be of vast importance to us all. And I would like to say this to your Lordships: just as his job is one of the most important when he goes to America to negotiate, so ours in this country is important also and that is to give him whole-hearted support so that he realizes he has behind him that united opinion which will strengthen his position. There is an American song which says "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition." That is the situation to-day. Let us back up the noble Lord who takes on this great responsibility, and let us get going on some good new aircraft.

VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS

My Lords, we have heard here and in other places about companies, national combines and so forth, to run aviation after the war and I would like to contribute one small voice in favour of international co-operation. We can see passing over our heads day and night an amazing example of magnificent international co-operation in the bombers which are going out on great expeditions in which they get accurately to the places they want to get to on the very second at which they want to get there and arrive home again to an exact schedule. Yet we are talking of smashing all this organization after the war and going in for small companies and national organizations. That seems to me to be a pity. After all, the bomber forces and the air forces of the United Nations have got everything that is necessary to form a big international combine. They have got a chain of air fields that spreads all over the world. They have got very fine bomber and transport planes. These would be very good to found air lines with. I myself know what they are like because I have flown in some of them recently. I am sure they would make very fine air liners while we are waiting for something else to be developed. Then the Air Forces have got masses of well-trained pilots. They have got ground crews who know how to handle the craft. They have got, as we have heard, transport commands which are well experienced by now in running air-line services. All this they have already got organized. English pilots, American pilots and pilots of all the United Nations have been co-operating with each other. They know the ground and the surface of the seas all over the world. Yet many people say "After the war all this must be broken up."

We know the loathing of some of the United Nations to organized Government projects, but surely there is some middle way that has been forgotten. Could not an international company be formed to do this work? We have not got many examples of international companies of that size in the world, but there is one, the Suez Canal Company, which as everybody knows is an international company. Some of its shareholders are Governments and some are private individuals. It is carrying on a job which is particularly vital for a large number of countries, and there has been no complaint as to its running nor has there been any squabbling over it. I feel sure the same thing could be done with regard to the air. Alter all, what is the alternative? We have already heard, even this afternoon in this House, about some of the innumerable little squabbles which are going to arise if we choose any other way. We hear about such matters as what nations are allowed to fly over what countries, who may land on what air field, whom the air fields belong to, who may pick up in a country and who may put down'there, and whether one may be allowed to pick up in the same country and re-land in it. This kind of thing is going to get worse and worse. We have only heard the beginning of it. Already in other countries especially in the United States of America, claims are being made to air fields all over the world on the ground that money has been spent on them. As I said, this is only the beginning. It is going to become a grand free fight for all if left as it is. Surely all this can be entirely stopped if one international company is allowed to control the whole thing. There is a lot to be said in favour of a single unit controlling the whole thing.

I am too young to remember the days when the railways in this country were run by hundreds of little companies, but other members of your Lordships' House may do so. If so they will remember the changing of trains, the rights of one company over another company's lines, the mucking about of trains and services and the question of whose was whose and what was what. It was such matters as these that finally induced them all to join together in a few big companies. What happened in this country in the matter of railways is going to happen over the whole surface of the globe in the matter of airways. The result of the railways combining was that train speed increased from about ten miles to some sixty miles an hour, and that long journeys could be made in comfort without the innumerable changes formerly necessary. Airways are very different from the seaways. Your ordinary ten-knot cargo boat takes a considerable time to get about the surface of the water and even big liners are not likely to exceed 30 or 40 knots in any time which we are able to foresee, but already air liners make 300 or 400 knots, and where is it going to stop? The time for combining airways is not far in the future, but now. It seems to me that if things are some day obviously going to come under international control we have already gone a long step along the road towards international control in our magnificent fighting forces fighting as one unit. There we have got something which should not be lightly thrown away and which we would do well to make the basis and foundation of the united airways of the world to come.

House adjourned during pleasure, and resumed by the LORD CHANCELLOR.

VISCOUNT ROTHERMERE

My Lords, I should like to congratulate the Government upon having at last held the Imperial Conference. We have had many debates upon this subject in your Lordships' House and we have urged the Government time and time again to call this conference together. Therefore now that it has been held I think the thanks of your Lordships are due to the Government. The noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook, has been charged by the Government at somewhat short notice to look after the matter of civil aviation. For many years Lord Beaverbrook has taken an interest in civil aviation and therefore it is no new subject to him. Of course, it is somewhat strange to see Lord Beaverbrook presiding over what must have been one of the biggest Committees of the last three or four years, after the many speeches which we have heard from him in this House when he has told us he has absolutely no use for Committees at all. On the other hand, he certainly disposed of this Committee in record time. The Conference sat for two and a half days and my only hope is that in disposing of the Conference he did not also dispose of other pressing and difficult problems by the expedient of not discussing them. I do not say for a moment that the length of a Conference is any criterion of the amount of work which has been got through, and it may be that the Conference, if short, has been successfull. It may be that many decisions have been come to. But in a Conference in which over fifty people take part, it certainly would seem that they must have been kept to more or less elementary problems.

It is unfortunate that Lord Beaverbrook is not speaking earlier in this debate because we are really discussing the subject without any public knowledge of what the Conference has done. Nevertheless I think it most important that we should state our views without that knowledge. I cannot see that there was any reason for the Conference not studying the whole problem in great detail. I do not believe for one moment that any feeling would be aroused in America if it were known that we were making our own plans, subject of course to their discussion and approval. What do we really want as our plan? I have never heard any member of the Government—we will hope Lord Beaverbrook is going to prove an exception—state what the Government want, but I am not afraid of stating quite frankly what I want, and I am quite sure a great number of your Lordships are not frightened of stating it either. I want to see an efficient, economic, prosperous, splendid air transport service run by this country after the war. I am not going to enter into the question whether it should be run by a certain instrument, whether it should be run by shipping interests or what form it may take. That is a matter to be decided by the Government and communicated to this House when we can discuss it at the proper time. In principle it makes no difference what form the instrument takes. What we want to see is that we have an air transport service, economic, imperial and strategical, running throughout all the routes of the world in which we are interested as an Empire. In saying that we can have no possible objection to America or to Russia having the same notion concerning their spheres of interest. America and Russia will have after the war far and away a majority of their air lines internally. We in this country, if we are to be prominent at all in civil aviation, must have a majority of our air lines externally. The Prime Minister said in one of his famous speeches that we are not land animals. Of course we are not land animals because our history has been built up on the sea, but in the future it must be built up upon the sea and in the air, and if that is not the case then there can be no question that these islands will gradually sink into the position of a second- or third-rate power.

The noble Viscount who has just spoken has put forward a view which has been put forward from these Benches on many occasions, that there should be an international air transport system. I do not know why air transport should be picked for this experiment. I perfectly appreciate and welcome the idea which is put forward, that humanity is advancing gradually towards an international authority which will be able to prevent wars from breaking out, but surely it is putting the cart before the horse if you are going to have an international air transport system before you have got the authority to which it must be responsible. You cannot have an international air transport system running throughout the world and responsible to all the Governments in the world. You must first of all create your authority. Why pick on one form of transport? Why not shipping? Why not any other form of communication? Why not the Air Force? Why not the Army and Navy? There are just as good reasons for every one of these as for air transport. If it were possible, one day, to reverse the whole history of the Reformation, to reverse the whole history of the nationalistic tendency of the age, if it were possible for that to be reversed and the world to accept an international authority; if, reversing the refusal to accept an international authority of the Papal power in Rome, the world should come back to another form of international authority to which nations will have to give up their sovereign rights; if that ideal should one day become an accomplished fact well then, of course, air transport will be run by that authority in the same way as practically everything else in the world. But until that time arrives it is, I suggest, playing with the question, and only creating difficulties, to suggest that it should be done at this time.

Some people have the extraordinary idea that transport planes, in the event of war, can be made immediately into bombers. Of course such an idea is perfectly ridiculous. None of the giant passenger planes of the future is going to be easily convertible into a bomber. Many people imagine that the Lufthansa was the germ of the Luftwaffe. The fact is that the germ of the Luftwaffe was to be found in the hundreds of flying clubs that sprang up throughout Germany after the last war. Are you going to control flying clubs over here? After the war, in this country, there will be flying clubs springing up, I hope, everywhere. Are they going to be controlled? They are going to be the nurseries of the airmen of the future, though it is not to them that we shall look for the middle-aged pilots who are going to fly the transport planes. The transport service cannot be converted for war uses. I do hope your Lordships will realize, as Mr. Howe said the other day —and I entirely agree with him—that no existing bomber could be made into a successful transport plane. And the reverse is also true.

Of course, as Lord Brabazon has mentioned, it is going to make our situation much more difficult after the war, this fact that no bomber can make a really successful transport plane. Lord Brabazon, incidentally, is the Chairman of several mysterious Committees which report from time to time. Nobody knows to whom they report—certainly the public does not know. The noble Lord makes speeches in this House somewhat critical of the Government, and has various cracks at the Americans, but we know nothing of his real activities as Chairman of these Committees. I think he would be doing much more useful service if he would get up and tell us what his work really is. I deprecate the suggestion that negotiations with America will be as difficult as he has told us they will be. I do not believe it. As a matter of fact those who have read the article written by Mr. Trippe, President of Pan-American Airways, which was published the other day, will have seen that it was an extremely reasonable article. It was perfectly fair, and Mr. Trippe pointed out that America has no desire whatever, should she finish the war with more transport planes than any other country, to take an unfair advantage of the circumstance.

I am quite certain that if Mr. Trippe holds that opinion, it can be said that it is shared amongst all those who really know something of civil aviation and are interested in it. I have no doubt whatever that if the practical experts in civil aviation internationally were to get round a table agreement would follow very quickly indeed. It is not technical difficulties which we have to anticipate, but political difficulties. Conversations with people like Mr. Trippe, who knows his business, are extremely easy. It is when conversations take place between politicians that matters tend to become extremely difficult.

There is a question which I would like to ask Lord Beaverbrook, but I do not suppose he can reply on this particular matter as he has only recently been appointed Chairman of the Imperial Conference and can only answer with respect to that. But perhaps Lord Sherwood may be going to say something in this debate. In case he is, or in any case— for if he does speak he probably will not tell me anything—I am going to ask a question. The question relates to a London air port, and I shall be glad if Lord Sherwood would give me his attention for a moment. I want to ask him about a London air port. It is most important for this country that we should have a London air port, that it should be the terminus for the transport lines that will be entering this country, that the passengers arriving here, after the war, should not be forced to travel seven or eight hours by train before they arrive in London, and that the port should be within twelve or fifteen miles from the centre of London so that people can motor straight to their destinations. I wish to ask whether any plans have been made for a London air port, whether any ground has been bought, whether anything at all, in fact, has been done about it. In case, however, it is a matter which does not really arise in his debate, I do not propose to press it too much now. I would take the opportunity, however, of letting my noble friend know that if no reply is given to this question to-day I intend to put down a Motion on the Order Paper for some future date.

I do not wish to keep your Lordships any longer, but I do ask that between this move of the Imperial Conference and the next move—which will, presumably, take place in America—we shall not be obliged to wait so long as we have already had to wait for the Imperial Conference. I expect that Lord Beaverbrook will be able to tell us when the next move is going to take place. I feel certain that, in his hands, matters will move rapidly, and that we shall have conferences in America succeeded by another conference in London. I am sure that it is the desire of your Lordships, as it is of the noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry, of myself and of others who have taken an interest in civil aviation, that the matter should be decided before the end of the war.

LORD MILFORD

My Lords, I desire to express my appreciation of the return of Lord Beaverbrook to the Government, and to say how glad I am, in particular, that he has interested himself in this matter of civil aviation. He has always stood for the rights of the individual and for private initiative, and it is on that ground that I want to say a few words to your Lordships. I also welcome the fact that my noble friend Lord Knollys has taken over the control of British Overseas Airways; but if that is going to be the one monopoly to run the civil aviation of Britain after the war I think that he has taken on a very big job. I do not see how the work can be properly done by a monopoly.

I listened in this House some time ago to the eulogy which Lord Reith gave us of the work of Imperial Airways before the war. I stated then that I had used Imperial Airways to a very large extent and had tried to use them even more, but that in my opinion, as the representatives in the air of the British Empire, they were the laughing-stock of the world. I mentioned one case, I may remind your Lordships, when I tried to book in June three seats to fly to Australia in December, and this monopoly told me that they could not book the seats, because they were likely to have a large amount of Christmas mail in December. They recommended me to go to the Dutch company, which I did, and that company jumped at the opportunity. I feel that the liner companies are really the people who should tackle this business. I have nothing to do with them, however, and they are quite capable of looking after themselves. There are some very able men in control of our shipping lines who, if they want to run air transport, are well able to put their own case. If air transport is not run as a monopoly, however, there is one difficulty, and that is subsidies. In my opinion the subsidies ought to be only the provision of aerodromes and aerodrome facilities and everything possible to help aeroplanes, just as ports are provided for steamships. Over and above this, there should be payment only for work actually done, that is, the mails carried, which should be paid for on the basis of so much an ounce; and the payment should be something like what the public is asked to pay for the carriage of mails by air.

The Mercantile Marine started in a very small way. Many of your Lordships know more about it than I do, but before the introduction of the principle of limited liability every ship was bought and sold in sixty-fourths; people put their heads together and drew upon their savings and each bought one sixty-fourth of a ship. Even to-day I believe that if you buy or sell a ship you buy or sell sixty-four sixty-fourths, and then you know that you are dealing with the whole ship. When limited liability came in, small companies were formed, and the origin of the great British Mercantile Marine is these small one-ship companies, companies formed by men who had learnt their business in Cardiff, Newcastle, London and so on, who had often started as office boys, but who had proved their worth and had, by their push and grit, induced others to invest their small savings in the enterprise. In many cases they had a small prospectus and went from door to door collecting the small savings of the people, in that way raising a few hundred pounds. Then they went to a store dealer and promised to buy the ship's stores from him, and he invested £500. They next went to insurance brokers and promised to insure the ship through them, and they invested £1,000. Finally, they went even to the captain and mate whom they were going to employ, and got their savings put into it, so that everybody connected with the ship was interested in it. When they had got together about £5,000, they went to a shipbuilder and asked him whether he would build them a ship if they gave £5,000 in cash and a mortgage for the remainder. Most of the single-ship companies started on that basis; in Cardiff and Newcastle there were any number of them. Those men proved their grit and capacity, they knew their business, and they gradually obtained further financial support and built other ships. In the end, these single-ship companies combined, and that is the origin of most of our big shipping companies to-day.

I am in favour of this private enterprise; it is the only thing which has built up the British Empire, which would not have existed without the Mercantile Marine. I want the Government to do nothing that will stop the private individual who wants to do so from ordering an aeroplane, buying it, and flying it for hire anywhere. The liner companies at sea have always been against the tramp steamer, as taking the plums, and by their deferred rebate system they managed to keep these ships out, because the "tramp" was cheaper and could always undercut the others when given the opportunity. However, whenever there was a sudden demand it was the tramp steamer which had to meet it, and it will be the same in the air. This air transport is going to be an immense business. There are thousands of ports in the world, but after the war there will be tens of thousands of aerodromes all over the world, and I do not believe that any monopoly company or any half dozen monopoly companies can possibly serve the public properly. We shall need the tramp company to take the emergency cargoes. If mining machinery has to be sent by air transport to an out-of-the-way place, the monopoly company will not be able to face it. The whole distribution to far-distant places must be done by the smaller men if it is going to be done efficiently. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to assure us that the Government will do nothing which would make it impossible after the war for any Briton to build, buy and fly for hire an aeroplane wherever he wants to, and that they will give him every assistance in the use of aerodromes, the provision of radio facilities and so on, just as steamships can now use the ports and port facilities of the world.

LORD SEMPILL

My Lords, I should like to join with noble Lords who have already spoken in congratulating the noble Marquess on bringing this matter once again to the attention of your Lordships' House. With him, we are all looking forward to a very interesting pronouncement from my noble friend Lord Beaverbrook, not only to-day but from time to time as these important matters with which he is charged develop. In previous debates on air transport, consideration has been given to the international aspect and to methods of co-operation with the United States of America and with other countries; but the noble Marquess's Motion to-day deals with air transport from the Empire and Commonwealth standpoint. I fully support him in this, and am entirely convinced that we should concentrate on setting our own house in order, leaving the particular methods of international co-operation to develop, as they certainly will, while we develop those important world-flung links for the British peoples.

The names of the important Dominion and Empire representatives attending the recent Conference which was presided over by my noble friend Lord Beaverbrook have been given, but, so far as I can ascertain, I do not think we have been told the names of the representatives of Great Britain. I think that those names should be known, and I hope that when my noble friend comes to deal with this matter he will tell us who the British representatives at this important Conference were. At that Conference no doubt many important and fundamental points with regard to the rights of passage, of landing and of the picking up of passengers and freight were agreed to, and we shall no doubt be told something about that; but I should like to ask what method is proposed for continuing this very useful beginning.

Obviously the Conference over which the noble Lord presided for two and a half days was too large a body to meet frequently, as it should, in different parts of the Empire, so a smaller body of representatives, say one or two from each of the Dominions, the Empire and Great Britain, should be constituted. My noble friend Lord Londonderry has mentioned the necessity of such a body being set up, and on another occasion my noble friend Lord Bennett suggested the name of Empire Air Board, or Council for such a body, which in my view should consist of not more than ten or twelve people. If such a body were set up it would surely function in a somewhat similar fashion to the Civil Aeronautics Board of the United States of America. The Board, as I see it, having reached agreement with all the Empire partners on the question of, say, the factor of safety of the aircraft to be used, the size and equipment of the landing grounds, and other kindred matters, would see that these were given effect to by the parties concerned. In addition, the Board's duties would, broadly speaking, be primarily to maintain the freedom of air passage for the various Empire and other services. The approach to the whole question would be one in which our aim surely is to make air transport available for all peoples, without any idea of gaining a national advantage. The facilities to be provided should be equally available to all countries. The various constituent parts of the Empire and Commonwealth would be encouraged to operate services to every part, and it would be left to the public, by the amount of accommodation it took up, to determine which of those services were best suited to their particular purpose.

In the development of air transport there lies before the British Empire to-day an opportunity greater than that possessed by any other country of showing in a practical way what we mean to do by making available for the benefit of mankind at large the devices of which the aeroplane and its equipment are in the forefront. It surely would not be inappropriate at this moment to remember that he who is by common consent styled the Father of Aeronautics—Sir George Cayley —in his work in the early years of the last century, the fundamental importance of which is appreciated to-day, spoke of the air as an uninterrupted navigable ocean that comes to the threshold of every man's door, which ought not to be neglected as a source of human gratification and advantage. There words were uttered by Sir George about a century ago, and we have not yet followed his advice. Surely now is the time to do so under the leadership of the noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook.

LORD GIFFORD

My Lords, the average person, when he decides to take a holiday, often has the habit of consulting his friends as to their experiences of a particular hotel in the place to which he wants to go. He may get an answer from one friend, "I went to the Grand Hotel. Of course, it is the last word in modern planning. Every room has a bathroom, and it has just been completed. But I found the service very poor indeed." If he goes to another friend he is told, "Well I went to the Royal Hotel. Of course, it is very old-fashioned and there are very few bathrooms, but the manageress takes the greatest trouble, every single thing you want is done for you, and every attention is given." On those two answers, I should choose the Royal Hotel. And although it is of course of the greatest importance that we should have the finest civil aircraft with the finest engines, it is also important that we should give in any British air line the finest service. That is a thing we should be giving now. We are running a number of air lines, not many, unfortunately, and I feel that every effort should be made to make the service in those air lines a by-word of efficiency. I know that that is mainly the concern of the chosen instrument, and I hope that Lord Beaverbrook and all those who have to do with civil aviation will ensure that at least the service given in our lines is above reproach. I do not propose to enter into the large question of what the chosen instrument should be in the post-war world, but I think it should be borne in mind that that service, on the ground as well as in the air, will be needed in remote parts of the world. Therefore the help will be required of people and organizations with local knowledge and established connexions. I do not propose to keep your Lordships any longer. We have listened to a most interesting debate, but I would like to emphasize that one watchword, "Service," on any British air line.

LORD WINSTER

My Lords, I listened with particular interest to what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Milford, because although we have had many debates on civil aviation in this House, to the best of my recollection this afternoon was the first occasion on which a word has been said concerning the interest which the shipping companies have today in this matter. It is obviously a very considerable one. Most of the big shipping companies at the present moment are taking the necessary powers to enable them not merely to operate aircraft but to build aircraft and construct and maintain aerodromes. I am also under the impression that some undertaking has been given that the Government will come to no final decisions in regard to civil aviation matters without the shipowners being given an opportunity of stating their views. I believe that is the case. For that reason I shall be particularly interested if the noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook, in his reply, is able to state whether the shipping interests were represented at the Conference over which he has just presided. I have read the accounts which have appeared in the Press concerning that Conference, but I did not notice in them that shipping interests were represented at it.

I listened also with great interest to what Lord Milford said on the subject of subsidies for civil aviation, and on that matter I would certainly agree with him. But I think there are certain cases in post-war civil aviation where the granting of subsidies would be justified. There will be cases where, by the granting of a subsidy, it may be possible to open up some new route which would be commercially unremunerative. It may be equally the case that by opening up certain air routes it will be possible to develop certain backward areas of the world. It may also be the case that after the war, until aircraft are available, certain companies may have to operate desirable routes with uneconomic machines. In such cases I would say there is a case to be made out for granting a subsidy, but I suggest that where subsidies are granted for good and sufficient reasons there should be complete publicity regarding costings and the subsidies granted.

One or two subjects in Lord Brabazon's speech also attracted my attention. In regard to the question of cabotage, I understand that the President of the United States has declared himself on this subject to the effect that aircraft of another country may descend at an aerodrome in the United States for the purposes of refuelling or servicing, but may not disembark or embark passengers. I also understand that our Prime Minister has declared himself in agreement with that view. I shall not discuss the rights or wrongs of that this afternoon, but if it is the case it seems to me to do away with another case which is put forward by certain prominent Americans that they should have rights in airfields which they have built in foreign countries. If, according to President Roosevelt, nobody may descend upon American airfields in order to embark or disembark passengers, I cannot see what case is left for retaining anything in the nature of rights over these airfields in other countries.

Lord Brabazon anticipated that after this war our own civil aviation would be in difficulties on the question of personnel. I am not disagreeing with him for one moment, but I wish the noble Lord had elaborated that point. I confess I was very surprised to hear that the noble Lord contemplates that that will be one of our serious difficulties. I was not clear as to which particular category of personnel the noble Lord had in mind, and I hope on some future occasion it may be possible for him to say something further on that point. As regards these Committees of experts who are recommending types of machines, I should like to endorse what other speakers have said. It would be of great interest to know what these Com- mittees are and who compose them. There seems to me to be a completely unnecessary mystery and secrecy on this point. If we are dealing with civil aviation, surely it is of no value to the enemy if we are told who are on these Committees.

I am sure your Lordships are all very glad to know that Lord Beaverbrook is going to reply this afternoon. In the many debates we have had on civil aviation the Government have put in one batsman after another, and none of them has played a remarkably good innings. I should say, by general consent, that Lord Sherwood played the worst innings of all. I think we shall have some rather more lively batting this afternoon. The existing position with regard to civil aviation has really become very anomalous in the course of the last week or so. Many speakers have asked in the past that there should be a separate Ministry for civil aviation—I would certainly endorse what the noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry, said on that score— but these requests have always been refused, and at the present moment the position is that civil aviation is the concern of the Air Ministry. A few weeks ago Lord Beaverbrook joined the Government. There has been no official statement, but Press accounts indicate that civil aviation has now passed into the hands of the noble Lord. We have only got the Press to go on, because to the best of my knowledge no official statement has been made. We have merely heard from the Press that Lord Beaverbrook will concern himself with civil aviation, and we have had Press reports that he presided at the Imperial Conference on civil aviation. In default of an official statement, civil aviation remains the concern of the Air Ministry, and it is the case that the noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook, in whatever activities he may pursue in regard to civil aviation, is not represented in another place. There is no possibility of pursuing interrogations there into the activities of Lord Beaverbrook—a very happy position for the noble Lord, but one which may give rise to a certain amount of feeling and annoyance in another place.

I have asked whether shipping interests were represented at this Imperial Conference. I should equally like to ask whether the Air Ministry was represented, it being the case that the Air Ministry is still charged with responsibility for civil aviation. The Conference was certainly very large, but it was disposed of with a rapidity which is almost a record, I should say, even in transactions with which Lord Beaverbrook has been concerned. I should like to ask how the findings of this Conference will be brought before Parliament. Lord Brabazon said that some agreement had already been reached at this Conference, and he also said that Lord Beaverbrook was going to the United States of America. It is a matter of some interest and importance to know how these decisions and agreements are going to be brought before Parliament, and to what extent we can be committed in regard to civil aviation without Parliament having had an opportunity of discussion. These points which I have brought forward all reinforce the arguments in favour of a separate Ministry for civil aviation.

Quite clearly the Air Ministry, which has the nominal responsibility, is not functioning at the present moment. Its duties and responsibilities have been taken over by Lord Beaverbrook. There is nothing whatever personal to the noble Lord in what I have said. In fact, nobody would rejoice more than myself if a separate Ministry were constituted and the noble Lord turned out to be the head of it. I should rejoice and offer my congratulations. The present position is anomalous. The present status of the noble Lord seems to be a little irregular and, if he were made, so to speak, "an honest woman of" in regard to this matter of civil aviation, there would be great advantage to the country and great advantage to Parliament, because at the present moment the simple fact is that neither we nor the country have the faintest idea of who is actually running civil aviation.

VISCOUNT TRENCHARD

My Lords, I shall not detain you more than a few moments. I had no intention of speaking in this debate, but when I saw the Motion of the noble Marquess I thought, in view of the statement made by the President of the United States of America, that the debate this afternoon would hinge to a great extent around that statement. I would ask the noble Lord who is to reply if those are the terms of the reference he had for his Conference. President Roosevelt said amongst other things on October I in Washington, according to The Times, that "the problem of post-war aviation had been under discussion for six or eight months. The objectives, he thought, were 'rather simple'—freedom of the air which meant freedom to use air ports, with one limitation." The statement goes on: The President said he had discussed this question with Mr. Churchill who, he thought, shared his ideas. Briefly, they felt that the apparatus of aviation within the borders of any country should be owned and run by that country …. Mr. Roosevelt added that where routes could be flown at a profit he thought they should be in the hands of private companies and not of the Government. There might, however, be a few exceptions. The United States might desire air communications with a particular point for some reasons, and might find that the route could not be profitably operated. In such a case, probably a Government line or a United Nations line would be established. He, was not worried about the matter of bases abroad—it was a question of 'mutuality.' When it was suggested that some Senators believed that the United States ought to have sovereignty over bases which this country was building, he asked how Americans would feel about other nations having sovereignty over bases in United States territory. That is really all I have to say. That is a statement made by the President of the United States who said that he thought he was more or less in agreement with our Prime Minister. Since that statement there has been a Conference, presided over I understand by Lord Beaverbrook, who was apparently the only British representative on it outside the Dominions. Now we have had this debate. I must say that I thought it would have hinged a great deal on the statement made and published about three weeks ago.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD BEAVERBROOK)

My Lords, there have been so many speakers and so much has been said that I am going to devote a large part of my speech to answering various noble Lords who have spoken. But first of all, in speaking from this Front Bench on this subject, I must state that I never spoke from the Bench opposite on this subject. I made many speeches from there on many subjects but not one on this particular subject. The Manchester Guardian calls me a co-belligerent. A co-belligerent I may be on some issues, but certainly not on this issue of civil aviation. However I always have a great deal of sympathy with the Motions that have been brought forward one after the other by my noble friend Lord Londonderry. I have a great deal of sympathy with them. I think the Motions he has brought before this House have really made a very considerable contribution towards the progress of civil aviation in Great Britain.

There are one or two subjects that I want to deal with with some care, but first of all let me make a few observations about air development after the war as I see it. There are many estimates of the extent to which civil aviation will be developed after the war. One estimate is a thousand aeroplanes in Great Britain engaged in civil aviation. Another estimate is 15,000 aeroplanes engaged in civil aviation throughout the world. My own estimate is perhaps 2,000 aeroplanes, and of course it is only an estimate.

LORD STRABOLGI

TWO thousand in Great Britain?

LORD BEAVERBROOK

Two thousand in Great Britain. We must remember that before the war there were less than five hundred aeroplanes in the United States of America engaged in civil aviation, and the United States was the foremost country in the world in the development of civil aviation. I believe that great progress will have taken place during the war and that civil aviation will be engaged in a much bigger way when the war is over. In Canada I have had an opportunity of examining the figures. Air transport there is almost doubled every year in regard to the number of passengers, of express and of mail. From 1941– 42 the growth has not been quite so fast because the number of aeroplanes in operation in Canada has been limited. But civil aviation in Canada should and would double every year if the Canadian Government had the necessary equipment.

Again I believe that newspapers will be carried after the war to an increasing extent by aeroplane. Newspapers were in fact carried before the war to Paris, to Ireland and the West Country by aeroplane. During the war the Times of New York and The Times in Great Britain are both sending copies abroad by means of the aeroplane. It is my belief that in this direction there will be a development in civil aviation and that the carrying of mail will exceed even the development in the number of passengers so that plainly civil aviation is likely to grow very fast. But it must be remembered that the figure of two thousand that I have put down—. the figure of one thousand has been given by my cautious noble friend Lord Sherwood and I do not think he takes the responsibility even for that—will not afford a solid basis for the production of aircraft after the war. We have to take into account in dealing with civil aviation the fact that the inherent merits of civil aviation are not something that will enable the civil aeroplane requirements to take up and occupy the slack in manufacturing enterprises when the building of war planes comes to an end.

From these observations I want to pass at once to say what I believe we require here at home. It seems to me that we have the immediate duty to equip ourselves as soon as may be with civil aircraft and here it is our good fortune to benefit from the wisdom of Lord Brabazon's Committee. I am now dealing with Lord Brabazon's Committee, as I have been invited to do by my noble friend Lord Winster and others. We have the good fortune to have the benefit of the wisdom of Lord Brabazon's Committee which deals with engines and aircraft for our post-war requirements—that is our post-war operations. That Committee was set up to deal with that particular issue. It has met regularly and its proceedings are before the Ministries concerned. I may say that Lord Brabazon is the best informed of our technical men and he has a fund of ideas. For my part I mean to follow the views of Lord Brabazon and his Committee so far as I am required to reach decisions in these matters. I hope that is a perfectly plain answer to the question that has been put to me.

Next I come to Empire air development. I have dealt with development as a beginning very briefly because I have a number of remarks made by various noble Lords to deal with and I want to get on as swiftly as possible. In Empire air development we must collaborate with the Dominions and India and the Colonies. In this immense project of Empire air development we will not develop a view which would be exclusive of the interests of others or one that would be directed against them. Not at all. It is our desire that we should go forward as an Empire having no differences between ourselves. That has been our policy in relation to the Empire. A Conference has been held in London and that Conference transacted its business in the space of two and a half days, which has displeased some of your Lordships. I will deal with that issue later on. Talks have been conducted with representatives of the Dominions and India and the Colonies. The conversations were necessarily of an exploratory and informal character. They could in no sense commit any of the Governments. The conclusions reached could only be of a provisional nature. But when all these qualifications have been made, the Conference reached a unanimous agreement on every issue presented to it. The issues presented to it were adequate for testing immediate opinion in relation to civil aviation. The Ministers who attended the Conference were Viscount Cranborne, Sir Archibald Sinclair, Lord Leathers, Sir William Jowitt, Lord Cherwell, Mr. Law, Captain Balfour, Mr. Assheton, the Duke of Devonshire and myself. Every issue was dealt with in the space of two and a half days. If that displeases some of your Lordships I must apologize. There are methods of making conferences last longer.

Now I want to deal with the next stage in development. That will be to go forward at once to an international conference. That is our expectation and intention, but it must wait on the United States of America and particularly on Russia, for Russia is engaged on the battle front, and there may be on that account some delay. But we are ready with our plan. If the Dominion Governments approve of what transpired at the two and a half days' conference then we are ready with our plan, an extensive plan and, if I may say so, a complete plan. We are ready. It is all on paper. But you will not be surprised when I say that from planning to achievement is a long leap, a very long leap. It all depends upon whether we can make that leap. Last time we tried we failed completely. In 1930 we began to talk about North Atlantic air services and in 1935 plans were laid for it. Not until 1939 did the passenger service get under way. That means nearly ten wasted years. There was a plan, but there were no passengers and no successful attempt to turn plans into the transport of passengers. That was the last time. This time there is something to be said which makes the picture a bit brighter.

In the winter of 1940–41, we did launch a North Atlantic air service. Not only did we launch that service, but we launched it in mid-winter. One of the Ministries— I think it would be wrong to say which— launched a North Atlantic air service and that service began on Armistice Day, 1940. Civil aeroplanes were flown over to Britain. On the first occasion they landed in Ireland and then flew on to Scotland. After that planes flew straight from Newfoundland to Scotland all through the winter. The number of aeroplanes crossing back and forth was very considerable. I will not mention the figure. The direction of that service was under Captain Will Coxon, and the first flight was made by Captain Bennett in mid-winter. We only lost one plane all through the winter, though that, unhappily, had a valuable passenger aboard. The pilots were recruited entirely from civil sources. In the first year, 1940, we recruited one hundred pilots. They were recruited by Mr. MacConnell of Montreal, some from Canada, some from the United States, and some from Great Britain. In the first six months of 1941 we recruited another 200 pilots through the same agency. That service, some time in the summer of 1941, was handed over to the Air Ministry and has been operating most successfully ever since. That is a brighter picture in relation to the North Atlantic traffic, and as the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon, said, the North Atlantic traffic is the crux of the position.

As I have said there is a plan. I have tried to outline it in this way, and I hope I have satisfied your Lordships that there is a policy and a plan, a policy which began with the Imperial Conference and will go on to the international conference. There is one noble Lord who cannot quarrel with the plan except in minor details. That noble Lord is my noble friend Lord Londonderry, for the plan to a considerable extent resembles the various projects he has presented from time to time. I may say he nominated me for this post years ago and the Government have even taken heed of him in that respect.

Next let me deal with the question of the chosen instrument. The chosen instrument is for overseas traffic only. It has nothing to do with domestic traffic. It is not even a monopoly in one sense, although in effect it is a monopoly. The chosen instrument receives money for the carriage of mails, the only money payment from the Government. In that sense it is a monopoly. It was set up in Parliament in 1939. The Bill came to this House on the first day of August, 1939, and it was debated and passed into law without any dissent at all. There was very little dissent—practically only one or two voices raised in qualifying sentences —in another place, save only from that section which wanted to go further in the direction of Government monopoly. I have been asked what is the policy in relation to this chosen instrument. I have seen no overwhelming demand for a change in policy that has led me to believe that the present is the time to deal with that statutory benefit or advantage or obligation conferred upon the chosen instrument. The chosen instrument is, of course, tied up with the whole question of private enterprise and shipping interests. All this must wait upon the decisions that will be taken at the Imperial Conference, and then, if the chosen instrument is to be abandoned, it will be soon enough to talk of shipping companies and private enterprise in relation to the overseas traffic.

There are other questions of high policy that arose at the Conference of the Dominions and the Empire. One question that arose was the question of an international authority which the noble Viscount, Lord St. Davids, spoke about. The Conference came to a unanimous decision. I point out again that a decision waits upon the approval of the Governments concerned. Those who attended the Conference were not in a position to pledge themselves beyond the right of Governments to revise the decisions of those at the Conference. It was decided unanimously that the international air transport authority should be intimately associated with and responsible to any United Nations security organization which might be established, the air transport authority being, of course, the authority which will be brought into existence if the conference has a happy passage with all the Governments of the Empire, which I believe will be the case.

I will turn now to issues raised by noble Lords in the debate. The noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry, asked about research. That is the province of the Brabazon Committee. He referred also to education and I was immensely impressed by what he said. But education is not a subject which I have had the opportunity to consider and to deal with, so far. Apologizing to your Lordships for the delay, I will raise this matter as quickly as may be in the appropriate quarters and will let my noble friend know what can be done. It seems to me that instruction of the young is wrapped up in the question of education.

Then I was asked about civil aviation being separated from the Air Ministry. That, of course, is a matter which I suppose my noble friend expects the Government to consider when the war is over. It would not be expected that we should separate civil aviation from the Ministry while the war is being fought. The Americans have set up a military authority in their country for civil aviation, just as we have one in existence here. I take it that this House is in agreement that civil aviation should remain in the hands of the Air Ministry until the war is over. I take it that there is general and unanimous agreement upon that. My noble friend asked about an Empire Air Conference. That is greatly to be desired, and it may emerge from the international conference that will take place shortly. I have no information concerning Mr. Yarex that would be of any real value. There are two stories but I am not in a position to give any definite assurance one way or another. Lord Brabazon spoke of General Critchley. I would join, if I may, in commending General Critchley to your Lordships. He is a man of remarkable ability; he has great drive, and 1 am confident that he will make a success of the chosen instrument if it is possible to do so.

I have dealt with the speech of Viscount St. Davids and I now come to Viscount Rothermere. He, I thought, referred somewhat sarcastically to the Imperial Conference because it lasted only two and a half days. I hope I gathered rightly what his Lordship meant. I can tell him that he is quite right in saying that he is not afraid to say what he wants with regard to civil aviation. He is quite right. But his Lordship has a tendency to say that he wants what he wants when he wants it, and that is the difficulty. Unfortunately for us he did not want it at the right time, and that has been a great tragedy. He was a director of Imperial Airways from 1935 to 1940. Now Imperial Airways had a conference. That conference began in Washington in December, 1935—it was carried on in Ottawa and Washington. It lasted until June 1, 1936. So you see the difference between the conference for which my noble friend Viscount Rothermere was responsible, and the Conference which has been carried through in the last few days.

However, the conference succeeded in hammering out a plan for civil aviation over the North Atlantic for fifteen years, and permits were issued on June 1, 1936. I will tell you what the plan was because it was quite interesting. The round trips, it was laid down, should not exceed two per week—two for Great Britain, that is, and two for the company presided over by the man whom my noble friend admires so very much—Mr. Trippe. Mr. Trippe was conducting negotiations on behalf of his company with the final backing of the United States of America. There was a subsidiary agreement about fares. The number of passengers that could be carried on a British air liner was something short of twenty. On the American Clipper the number was, I think, sixty. The ownership of the British line was to be as to 24½ per cent. Canada, as to 24½ per cent. the Irish Free State, and. as to 51 per cent. Great Britain. The chosen instrument was the Imperial Airways. The agreement is in existence at the present time. It runs till 1951. Then we threw in Bermuda. We made a deal with Mr. Trippe's company by which operations to Bermuda would be divided between Great Britain and the United States. The Cavalier was to carry twenty passengers and it began on June 6, 1937. The Pan-American concern were carrying sixty to seventy passengers every journey when they got their big ships operating on the run. So you will see that if this agreement had operated—which it did not, for reasons which I will give you, though a service was operated over the North Atlantic—Britain and the Empire would have got one-quarter of the North Atlantic traffic and one-third of the Bermuda traffic. That is how Britain would have shared with America.

By 1939, Pan-American Airways had been insisting on being permitted to make flights over the North Atlantic without waiting for Imperial Airways. Imperial Airways were not ready with their planes; they could not bring them into operation for one reason or another. Pressure was put upon Imperial Airways, or upon the British Government, to such an extent that the Pan-American Company launched their North Atlantic service without waiting for Imperial Airways. In fact, Imperial Airways never carried any passengers who paid their fares. They made two or three experimental flights but never came into operation as passenger carriers on a commercial basis at all. So perhaps I may be forgiven for reminding Viscount Rothermere that it was a pity that he did not put into effect some of the views—

VISCOUNT ROTHERMERE

If I may interrupt the noble Lord since he is referring to me, may I point out that it is well known that the reasons Imperial Airways could not operate over the North Atlantic were that in its charter it was forbidden to buy any aircraft outside this country, and that it was quite impossible to get British aircraft in time having regard to the facilities that existed here then?

LORD BEAVERBROOK

It seems to me that with the drive which he expects in others Viscount Rothermere might have been able to push through a plan for speeding up the production of the necessary aircraft in Great Britain. That is the very thing that we required over everything else. Imperial Airways failed. They failed because they tried to operate with patched-up aircraft instead of going out for new aircraft. Their failure is the reason why almost every plane flying over the North Atlantic to-day is American. I do not think there are any British airplanes flying over the route for Great Britain at all, apart from a British type of aeroplane which is flying for Canada. I do not think there is any type of aeroplane flying for Great Britain, with the possible exception of one experimental type. What is the reason? Why have not we these aeroplanes? Because Imperial Airways, of which my noble friend Lord Rothermere was a director, failed in its duty and responsibility to provide aircraft. The Caledonia and the Canberra were simply strengthened types, and in any case they were only 50,000 lb., as against the 86,000 lb. of the comparable aircraft which were being built by the Americans at that time. Our engines were an adapted R.A.F. type. Instead of having types specially built for civil aircraft, they were modified to suit civil aircraft. I do not want to press the point; I make it only because of the necessity for explaining the difficulties which will arise at this conference in America, which my noble friend Lord Rothermere thinks should be an easy triumph for us, and to which we should have to go confessing that we have not any aircraft suitable for passenger traffic across the Atlantic at the present time. That is not at all a pleasant situation for a man who is going to conduct negotiations.

My noble friend Lord Sempill asked for the names of the British members of the Empire Conference, and I have told him the names. Lord Gifford spoke of service, and I agree with him completely. In reply to Lord Winster, there were no shipowners at the Conference, which was one of Governments only. There was no room for shipowners, or for representatives of business interests, or for representatives of operating air lines; the Conference was strictly limited to Governments. It was a discussion between Governments. Possibly one Government will make its chosen instrument a Government company, while another will encourage private enterprise, another combine the two, and another do as Britain did, and choose an instrument which is owned by shareholders but under the control of the Government. The Conference, however, was a Government Conference only.

LORD STRABOLGI

There were no business men there at all?

LORD BEAVERBROOK

No business men at all, as long as you exclude Lord Leathers, and perhaps I should add myself.

LORD STRABOLGI

There were none there as business men?

LORD BEAVERBROOK

No. The rest did not look to me like business men ! When Lord Winster asked me whether there were any shipowners present, I nodded my head, but that nod meant I would answer; it was not indicating assent. My nods must not be taken as assent until I can express myself in exact terms. My noble friend also spoke of cabotage. This was also referred to by my noble friend Lord Brabazon, and by it I under-stand him to refer to internal traffic. I have already told you that we came to complete agreement over the issues raised at the Imperial Conference, but next time I will think of some way of satisfying the natural desire of my noble friends for a longer meeting ! The noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, spoke of the international conference in relation to a statement which is attributed to President Roosevelt. I could not say that the President made that statement, but what is certain is that our Prime Minister and the President had conversations on civil aviation, that they came to a considerable measure of agreement, and that the policy which I am laying before your Lordships to-day is consistent with that measure of agreement.

VISCOUNT TRENCHARD

Then is the statement about the "freedoms of the air" true?

LORD BEAVERBROOK

Freedoms of the air, subject to certain conditions which I am not free to go into. It is impossible to go to an international conference and discuss at all publicly the issues, but, if the noble Viscount will allow me to do so, I will tell him privately about these freedoms. I now come to my conclusion. I am conscious of the immense duty and enormous responsibility which rests upon any person who undertakes international negotiations, particularly in relation to this complicated issue. I think it a thankless task, for any bargain which is brought home is sure to be unsatisfactory to some portion of the community. But for my part I go forth to the duty with the determination and resolution to do what I can to put the civil aviation of Great Britain on the highest possible plane.

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY

My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for the speech which he has just delivered, and also to congratulate him. He will not expect me to agree with everything he says, but certainly on the major issues I feel myself in agreement with the noble Lord. He has told us very definitely that complete agreement was reached on every issue at the Dominion Conference. He has also told us—and it is very gratifying to hear it—that the plans and the policy are ready to be put forward when he goes for his next visit to America. Those are two very satisfactory statements, and I think that I and my friends can congratulate ourselves on having, by the pressure we have brought forward, had a Minister definitely appointed to deal with this matter. Up to now we have had different Ministers, who have done their best, and I should be the last person to criticize them; but they have not been in the position which the noble Lord is in to-day, of being able to give us answers to our questions and to give us hope for the future.

I do not want at this stage to go into any of the matters to which the noble Lord has replied except one, and that is the monopoly. I would urge the Government to consider this matter from their own point of view. It is quite true that there is an Act of Parliament which has established a company, but there are many individuals, operating companies, constructors and their designers in this country who would like to know what will probably happen in the future. I hope that the Government will consider that point and make up their minds what should be done. I think that we can say that the noble Lord has had a very good exercise gallop in your Lordships' House, and I am sure that when he appears on the racecourse he will prove a winner. I ask leave to withdraw my Motion.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.