§ LORD WEDGWOOD had given Notice that he would call attention to the attitude still shown towards Jewish refugees from Nazi oppression, in the services, in the Law Courts, in civil life, here, in Palestine, in the Colonies, in Canada, and Australia; to ask for full use of this man power; and also move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, it is time I think that we checked the Anti-Semitic poison from doing further injury to our good name and good sense, and especially should we do so when it is directed against the refugees from Nazi brutality who are helpless in our hands. For then it ceases to be merely injurious and becomes inhuman. A number of people who ought to know better actually gloat over this growing hatred of Jews and encourage it. How often have I been told by former appeasers with a sort of relish, that "people are saying there is something to be said for Hitler's treatment of Jews." Hitler's treatment of Jews is more horrible than anything that has defiled humanity in the Christian era. Yet we have Englishmen and Englishwomen who can regard it as excusable. That is why I wish to have this check put upon what is going on.
§ The poison is spreading, more particularly in our upper governing classes; and it is therefore especially our duty to seek it out and stamp it out wherever it is found. In civil life these refugees have met with sympathy and kindness—I am speaking of the common people—it is when they come up against officials that they find dislike instead of sympathy. Except during the panic internment in the months of 1940 the police have not been so bad. It was the internment which seemed to put a cachet of respectability on Anti-Semitism. I will give two quite recent examples of this. One occurred only last week. I read in the Evening Standard, I think on Friday of last week, an account of a sentence passed upon a German refugee woman sixty-one years of age. She had a husband who had been a wealthy citizen of Hamburg. They had been robbed of everything and the husband sent to a concentration camp. They escaped to this 345 country. The old lady had evidently gone slightly wrong in the head, and had apparently taken to pilfering articles of small value. She had stolen a 1 lb. pot of marmalade. The case came before London Quarter Sessions and she was sentenced to six months' imprisonment. In the course of the hearing the doctor said that what she probably needed was attention, and the Chairman of Quarter Sessions said she would get the attention she needed in prison.
§ Think of the sentences that are passed upon people, sometimes servants of the State, for committing robbery, and then compare them with this sentence of six months' imprisonment. Realize what that sentence means. It means that never will that woman be allowed to go into America, or into many other countries, because, having been sentenced to imprisonment, she loses what little human rights are left to her. Now it would have been impossible a few years ago for such a sentence as that to be passed. Yet here we have an up-to-date English Christian gentleman not only passing this sentence of six months, but adding a cruel remark like that which I have quoted. Such a thing could not have happened before, but it happens now because we have allowed this sort of talk to go on, and people have begun to think it is respectable and the natural attitude to take in regard to these people.
§ I have another case. There was a man called Simon Perlmann who was sentenced the other day to a fine of £5,000 and six months' imprisonment for concealing dollar investments. I know something about that man, because I got him out of Germany. He wrote to me and I said I was sorry I could not do anything to get him here, because my house was full and I could not take on any further heavy financial liabilities. Then his uncle sent me a thousand dollars to guarantee me against loss, whereupon I signed the bond and got him and his wife into this country. I paid out the money to him as was necessary to keep him going, and apparently his uncle entrusted another thousand dollars to him so that he (the uncle) might escape to America. In America, too, you have to sign a bond to say you will never allow the person who gets in to come upon the public funds, so this thousand dollars was sent to America in Simon Perlmann's name, the other man being in Germany, and it 346 was upon that being discovered that he was fined £5,000 and sentenced to six months' imprisonment. He wrote and explained the circumstances to me.
§ I must say I was thankful he had not consulted me about it. What would any of your Lordships do in those circumstances? I should undoubtedly have told him: "If you do this you may go to prison, if you do not do it I hope you go to hell"—a natural attitude for any Christian to take up. On this I will appeal to the noble Viscount opposite and remind him of the view of his own uncle, Lord Hugh Cecil, as he then was, who stated in another place that Acts of Parliament do not make things right or wrong, that there is a higher law. You have there a clear-cut case of what ought a citizen to do. I think that man did completely right. In his position I should have done the same. I would ask your Lordships before you judge him and me, to take notice of a very similar case that came up in the French Convention in 1792. The unfortunate emigrés were trying to get out of France, and the Convention introduced a law of death to men who tried to escape, and the galleys or prison for those who helped or harboured them. Then Mirabeau, at the end of his years, feeble, got up and protested. He said: "This is contrary to the laws of humanity. You may pass this law, but I swear that I will never obey it." The French, being an emotional people, rejected the law. In exactly the same way you may make a law which a man should not obey.
§ I do not think such a sentence could have been passed upon such a refugee three years ago. It is because you and I have said nothing for the last three years to stop this that we get these shocking cases now. It is going on throughout the whole world. The other day I discovered 42 refugees who had managed to escape from Poland right across Russia to Japan, buying their way by bribery, of course, the whole way. They were turned out of Japan into China, from China they got into Burma and from Burma they fled to India. These pathetic refugees who had taken nearly two years on their journey were not received with any sympathy. They were interned and we were told the other day that they must be turned out. They had nowhere to go. Some had visas for Pale- 347 stine, but even that could not help them. In that case certainly I got hold of the Secretary of State and he put things right, and they are to be allowed to remain for a while. But observe that it is the officials of England, the country where we kept our arms open for all the refugees, the country which received Jews, the people who are on our side in this war, who treated them in this manner.
§ The tragedy of it is that they expect nothing better than to have to pay bribes and to be swindled. For £100 they can get a visa for Cuba, but when they get to. Cuba they are not allowed to land. By paying another sum they can get to Liberia. By paying £1,000 they can get to Palestine, when the Government will take a third of it from them. That is what happens to people who are the so-called possessors of £1,000 capital, on which they must pay import duty. Some time later I shall raise with the noble Lord the question of the police in Palestine. There, I have been told if you pay £10 a head the police will look the other way and you can get in. I remember one official of the police force who was brought into court for taking bribes from the Jews which allowed them to go in. He came to England and had the effrontery to come to me and ask me to give him help because he helped the Jews. These unpleasant persons disgrace our name. Our education is producing these people. I cannot for the life of me put myself in the position of the man who orders a return to Hitler of those 660 men, women and children on board the "Struma". I do not know how it happens that these people acquire such an idea of what is right, what is gentlemanly, what is decent.
§ Then there were 800 who were not allowed to land in Palestine and who were sent to Mauritius and interned in Mauritius. Since the noble Lord has been in his present office they have been allowed to work, but it seems to me that when you are trying to develop places like Kenya you might use these people there instead of taking them in Mauritius where there is nothing to do. It is made all the worse because all these people who are interned are only anxious to help us. Their one object is to beat Germany, not in revenge but to save those who are left. But we keep on treating them as if they 348 were enemies. In Palestine you find Jewish refugees behind barbed wire in internment camps and the Germans free in Sarona, a German Colony. Then there is Jamaica. That is another case where the noble Lord has done something. Just consider what is the position in Jamaica. There you had a number of Jews (I think 34 altogether) who were interned who were no more guilty than those interned here and who of course were unable to give any assistance to Hitler, even if they wished to give it. Here I should think two-thirds of these people who were interned have been got out. They have been examined by board after board and some 4,000, I should say, have been released in this country. But in Jamaica these 34 have remained year after year in prison. After exhaustive inquiries extending over two and a half years, ten have been released and it is hoped to complete inquiries soon about the other 24.
§
The attitude towards the whole thing is extraordinary. It is as if these people were really our enemies. Of course, it is not Anti-Semitism. These people who do this sort of thing are not Anti-Semitic; at least we are assured they are not. It is their impression which we have allowed them to acquire, of the right thing to do to Jews.
By the torture prolonged from age to age,
By the infamy, Israel's heritage,
By the ghetto's plague, the garb's disgrace,
By the badge of shame, by the felon's place,
By the branding tool, the bloody whip,
And the summons to Christian fellowship
We pledge our faith that at least the Jew
Would wrest Christ's name from the devil's crew.
This has gone on long enough. We compare badly with what is happening in France at the present time. The Church in France, the Catholic Church, the Church of Rome protests and resists and breaks the law in order to prevent Jews in France being torn from their homes and sent to Germany.
§ We see the result of this infection from Germany spreading all over the world. It is quite time we stopped it. I do not propose to argue these matters. I merely mention them as illustrations of a frame of mind among certain classes in this country. Who are our enemies? The appeasers, of course, want this war to appear as a war of Germany against this country and 349 not as a war of tyranny against freedom, for they sympathize with autocracy and dislike Parliament. That is at the root of the trouble. The Jews must obviously hate Hitler. If we fight for Democracy the Jews must be comrades. Hitler now has swept up the Jews of France, and many others in Europe to work for him. And all the time we will not allow them to come to this counry. Only last month I begged the Home Office to give a visa to a Jewish boy of sixteen or seventeen to allow him to come from France to his parents in this country. But no, they would not do it. Rather, it would seem, the view is that we would prefer to have such people working as slaves for the Germans. This is madness. We should welcome every refugee, we should use every refugee. We want them for munitions, we want them for roads, we want them all.
§ That is the practical side. On the side of humanity the position is, I hope, obvious. I shall be accused of attacking my countrymen and advertising mistakes which had better be forgotten. It is our finest record that, though there have been black pages in our history, there have always been Members of Parliament to denounce the crime of their own countryment and to right the wrong. That is why I seek the aid of the noble Viscount opposite, the Leader of the House. I cannot do it as effectively as he can. The House and the world will little note nor long remember what I say here, but they will remember what lie says to-day. It is his duty to be the guardian of the morals and traditions of England. The Cecils have held that responsibility for four hundred years. This, as I say, is his business; not mine. I am only sorry that it should not have been done years ago. The object of this House is to see that we retain British standards of decency and Christian standards of humanity. Your Lordships will remember that when the Roman Senate appointed a Dictator to wipe out for a time the powers of the Senate they instructed the Consuls in these words "Videant consules ne quid detrimenti capiat respublica." That is: "Let the Consuls see to it that the republic comes to no harm." My Lords, I address those same words to you but with a slight variation "Videant proceres ne quid detrimenti capiat humanitas." I beg to move.
350§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELMy Lords, my noble friend Lord Addison has not been able to be here to-day and he has asked me to say a very few words in support of the Motion which the noble Lord has just moved with his usual sincerity and warm-hearted pugnacity. But before I go further I should like to point out that one may very well sympathize with the terms of the Motion without by any means agreeing with all the arguments which my noble friend has adduced in its support, or even accepting, perhaps, in its entirety the account which he has given of the conditions which have impelled him to put down the Motion. I venture to suggest that the main reason for the present unsatisfactory attitude towards Jewish refugees from many countries is popular prejudice in this matter. I cannot share my noble friend's view that the fault is mainly with the officials. I am afraid that the blame must be spread more widely over the community as a whole.
This popular prejudice has arisen, I think, from widespread misconceptions about the origins and antecedents of these unfortunate people. There is, in the first place—and this is a point which my noble friend emphasized—the Anti-Semitic prejudice which is directed, I think, with special virulence against Jewish aliens, and which I fear—and I have little doubt that every one of your Lordships will agree with me in this—has spread very considerably since the outbreak of the war. The Nazi doctrine that the Jews of the present day are a separate racial type whose inherent inferiority should be acknowledged by something akin to a slave status in society has its adherents all over the world. The Anti-Semites in this country (and there are many of them) are among the spiritual cousins of the German Nazis and the Italian Fascisti. It cannot be too often said, I think, that such theories have no scientific foundation whatever, and that they are one of the most pernicious and anti-social inventions of anthropological mythology. Curiously enough—and it does not seem to have been very frequently pointed out—Anti-Semitism and Jewish nationalism have a certain amount in common. Both regard the Jews as a separate people from the Gentiles, and as strangers and aliens in whatever country they may have settled over however long a period of time. They 351 both, therefore, have the effect—though not, of course, so strongly in the case of Jewish nationalism—of encouraging that unfair discrimination between Jews and non-Jews in social life which one hopes will disappear as completely as the artificial barriers which for many centuries divided Catholics and Protestants.
When it is generally, if not universally, realized that the Jews are, in fact, a religious minority like the Catholic or Nonconformist sects and that this is the only substantial difference between them and us, they are bound to be accorded full equality of treatment and to enjoy, in practice as well as in theory, all the rights and privileges of citizenship. But the German or Austrian refugees of Jewish extraction labour under the additional handicap of being—in the eyes of the law at least—enemy aliens. It is difficult, if not impossible, in war-time, to overcome the popular prejudice against individuals of enemy origin whatever their past history and antecedents. Anger and hatred, naturally, in times like these, are far more powerful than reason and common sense. But something can be done, I most sincerely believe, by drawing attention to the common record of persecution, often including confinement in prisons or concentration camps, and the heavy sacrifices most of these refugees have made for the principles of a liberal and democratic society. In my view, the root cause of their disabilities is the ignorant and emotionally-coloured prepossessions of a considerable section of the public. Wise and temperate propaganda may do something to counteract these dangerous fallacies, but I do not believe that any Government, however enlightened their policy may be, and however enlightened their leading members may be, could entirely eradicate Anti-Semitic and Anti-German refugee prejudice.
There is, however, a more limited field in which the Government might act with real advantage. I should like to offer two practical suggestions, which have the object both to improve the lot of loyal refugees in this country and to increase their usefulness to the community. It should, I think, be made easier for men of the refugee type, serving in the Pioneer Corps, to transfer to other branches of the Service. Most of these men have excellent educational or professional qualifications, and their ability is obviously wasted 352 so long as they are limited to occupations demanding only manual labour. Such transfers are, of course, possible in theory, but even the most suitable candidates are constantly rejected in practice on security grounds. I cannot help feeling that the genuine reliability of many of these men is perhaps under-estimated by those who arrive at these decisions.
My second suggestion is this. I believe that nothing would do more to fortify the morale of aliens who are actively helping in the war effort than for the Government to offer them now British citizenship when the war is over, provided, of course, that their record remains unimpeachable throughout the whole period. If they have been good servants of this country, ready and willing to make the maximum sacrifice during the war, there is every reason to suppose that they will make useful citizens when peace returns. A promise of eventual naturalization would be at once the best incentive to maximum effort and a fitting reward for patriotic services rendered at the present time.
§ LORD MARLEYMy Lords, I intervene for a few moments only because I notice a reference to Canada in the Motion of my noble friend, and a request for the full use of man-power. In my capacity as. Vice-Chairman of the Refugee Committee of Parliament, I have in recent months visited the internment camps in Canada. When the internment policy in this country was adopted after Dunkirk, some 2,700 refugees were sent to Canada. I visited the camps there at that time. There was considerable confusion, because the Canadian Government were merely acting as agents for the United Kingdom in looking after these refugees. However, the position gradually sorted itself out, and about two months ago it was my privilege to go to one of the few remaining camps in Canada to open, on behalf of the Canadian authorities, a metal-working training school, established in the internment camp for the purpose of using the man-power of the refugees. By that time there were only between 1,000 and 1,200 refugees still interned, and the camps had been turned from barbed-wire enclosures into absolutely open camps. The interned refugees were able to walk out of the camp and come back again, and there had not been a single case of breaking bounds.
In the school which we established, largely by funds some of which I was 353 able to help to get from the United States of America, We are training 140 refugees at a time in a four-months course. The Canadian Government have established, alongside the internment camp, a special camp, which is called a machine repair depot. Every refugee who has completed his four months' training is moved to the machine repair depot, where he becomes a free man. He is no longer an interned refugee; he is a free man. He is paid the usual wages for the repair of the machines for the war effort which is undertaken in this camp. The Canadian Government have already been able to use a considerable number of the refugees in the camp, and have guaranteed to take every refugee who goes through the training course, so as to secure a full use of the man-power available in repairing the machines required la the various industrial plants in Canada. One of the most interesting results of this is that, although the British Government offer to the refugees a, certain number of places in ships going to England, where their cases may be reviewed, the number of refugees taking advantage of this offer is only about one-third of the number of places open to them. The others prefer to stay in Canada, where, by this system devised by the Canadian Government, they get this training and become free men and are able to make that contribution to the war effort which they all desire to make.
I do not know exactly what the position is here, because I have been away for a considerable time, but, in so far as that method might be applied, or still further applied, in the United Kingdom, I venture to suggest that it should be borne in mind that it has been amazingly successful in Canada in solving the very problems to which my noble friend Lord Wedgwood referred—the anxiety in the minds of these people because they are not being used, and their desire to help in the war effort. It is extraordinary to see these people before and after their training, and to note the difference in outlook, the desire to help, and the realization that they are being enabled to give the help which they want to give. I hope very much that the system may be extended in this country if it already exists, or introduced if it is not already being used.
LORD STRABOLGIMy Lords, before the noble Viscount the Leader of the House, replies, I should like to say a few 354 words in support of my noble friend. My noble friend was good enough to ask me to speak in support of him—not that he needs any support—and I am very glad to add my voice to those of my noble friends on these Benches. I should like in particular to plead with the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, to take this opportunity of following, in a rather wider sense, the example of the Prime Minister. I refer to those sentences in the Prime Minister's speech in another place two days ago in which he denounced the abominable treatment of the Jewish refugees in France by the Laval régime. No doubt my noble friend the Leader of the House will have marked those passages in the Prime Minister's speech. I am sure that those sentences were spoken by the Prime Minister with serious intention, and I would plead with the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, to add his denunciation, which I know he will be able to do with equal sincerity, and if possible to widen the appeal.
I do so because Anti-Semitism is a most remarkable and dangerous movement, which can spring up in any country. Ten years ago there was no Anti-Semitism in Italy. Italians of Jewish faith, living in Italy, suffered from no friction whatever. One reason for this was that most Italians can be mistaken for Jews in appearance; they have the same appearance as the dark-skinned Jew, and inter-marriage and social intercourse were common in Italy. Many Jews in Italy did very good service to the Italian State. But then, as part of this miserable policy of Axis alliance, the Mussolini Government were persuaded by the Nazi fanatics to institute an Anti-Jewish persecution in Italy, and unfortunately they found support among certain sections of the Italian governing class, with the result that the lot of the unfortunate Jews in Italy was made extremely miserable. That was an artificial movement.
We have to-day the same artificial movement in France, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Wedgwood, has pointed out, it has fortunately brought forward a noble protest from many eminent Frenchmen, both lay and clerical. My noble friend and I have always been somewhat suspicious of what we used to call the Black International—the Catholic International—only suspicious, of course. Well, apparently the Black International has 355 really got into action now, and on a good cause, and who can wonder after these abominable cruelties which are being perpetrated by this rascally régime under Laval? And not only the clergy have made this noble protest—and I am sure our own clergy of all denominations will not be long in following the example—but I notice that, a French general, M. de St. Vincent, Military Governor of Lyons, refused to allow his troops to hunt down these unfortunate Jews for deportation to Germany. He has been dismissed from his post by the Vichy régime, but he has once more proved that the heart of France is sound.
This Anti-Semitism could also be fostered in this country, and we saw the beginnings of it before the war. Where-ever there is a concentration of Jewish inhabitants, whether they are refugees or native-born—as my noble friend Lord Snell knows from his long experience in the East End of London—wherever you have concentration of Jewish citizens, whether it is in the East End of London or in Leeds or in certain parts of Manchester or Glasgow, there are opportunities to arouse Anti-Semitism if you appeal to certain base instincts. The only places really where the so-called British Fascist movement made any sort of progress was among certain hooligan elements in the East End of London, in Leeds and in Manchester, and one or two other centres where there was a considerable concentration of Jewish artisans, traders and merchants. That hooligan element can usually be stimulated into Anti-Jewish excesses and you also have an underlying Anti-Semitism in certain sections of the governing class, the so-called upper class in every country. You have a little of that in France, you had it latent in Italy, and you have it in this country.
This is where I particularly wish to appeal to the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House. He occupies a very great position in the public life of this country, politically and socially. He is a member of a family with very great political traditions. A word of protest from him may stop this movement at its source, this incipient Anti-Semitism which I fear exists in this country and has begun to manifest itself in several directions, some of which were cited by my noble friend Lord Wedgwood. It is a very dangerous and obnoxious sentiment but it can be checked 356 and stopped. You find the beginnings of it in certain sections of the Civil Service, in certain sections of the Army, and in certain business quarters in this country. It comes from the same movement that has produced these abominable excesses and cruelties in Germany. It is the indirect result of the same Nazi racial propaganda, and it should be stopped where-ever it manifests itself. I say this because I believe that members of your Lordships' House have a particular responsibility in this matter and I am very proud to add my voice to the appeal that has been made by my noble friend. I appeal to the Leader of the House to treat this matter very seriously indeed and to let it go forth that, speaking for His Majesty's Government, for all Parties of the State and all decent-minded British citizens, we will not tolerate this thing starting in this country, and we intend to deal very seriously where there are any examples by officials or anyone else of prejudice or bias because of the religion or racial origin of refugees or anyone else.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (VISCOUNT CRANBORNE) (Lord Cecil)My Lords, the Motion which the noble Lord, Lord Wedgwood, has put upon the Paper is very widely drawn, so that it might include almost any subject connected with the Jews. I should like to thank him for his great courtesy in indicating to me the specific points, or, at least, some of the specific points, which he intended to raise, for, in this way, he put me in the position to make some answer to him. I hope, however, that the House will forgive me if on the present occasion I do not make a very full reply, for during recent months we have had a great many debates on the Jewish question, all of them initiated by Lord Wedgwood. Those debates have covered many of the points which have been referred to in the discussion this afternoon. For instance, I do not propose to say anything to-day about the "Struma," nor do I propose to say anything about Mauritius: those are subjects upon which there have already been Government statements. But I hope I shall not be taken as accepting the views which were expressed by Lord Wedgwood on these subjects this afternoon.
I would like to say at once that I deeply sympathize with the main purpose of the noble Lord in reprobating to the 357 utmost degree the wickedness of Anti-Semitism. In that he is, if he would only believe it, entirely at one with His Majesty's Government. But I must confess that I was a little bewildered by the nature of the arguments with which he recommended his case. If I had been intending, or any of your Lordships had been intending, to raise a debate on the subject of the ill-treatment of the Jews—and Heaven only knows that that treatment is horrible enough—I should have expected that your Lordships' attention would have been devoted to the really terrible events which are at present occurring in Germany, in Poland, in Czechoslovakia, and now even in France. In France, as Lord Strabolgi has said, recent events have occurred which have appalled and disgusted us all. That is indeed a very horrible story. There in those occupied countries unhappy people are being starved, tortured and done to death; husbands are being tom from their wives; mothers are being torn from their children. These unfortunate people are being subjected to every form of horror and humiliation which a perverted imagination could devise, and all this merely on account of their race and their religion. I think it is probably the most shocking exhibition of sadistic cruelty and depravity which the world has ever known, and it makes one's blood boil even to think of it.
But it was not against those fearful deeds that the noble Lord poured out the vials of his wrath this afternoon, except in a mere parenthesis; it was not with the Germans that he showed his great indignation; it was with the people of this country, or certain sections of the people of this country and of the Dominions. Now, frankly, I do not understand that. I thought it was universally recognized that there is no country in the world where there is less justification for the charge of discrimination against Jews than in this country at the present time. In Britain, and we may very well be proud of it, there is entire equality between Jews and other members of the community. Jews can become members of the great professions. The medical profession, the legal profession, politics: every walk of life is open to them. Some of the most famous doctors and lawyers and statesmen of air country of recent years have been Jews. The noble Lord referred to some unspecified members of 358 what he called the "governing classes" who were, in his opinion, sympathizing with Hitler's treatment of the Jews. I can only say that if he has heard these unspecified people saying these things, he must keep very odd company indeed.
Frankly, I do not know what he means by "governing classes." Presumably he means those who govern the country. He was a good many years in the House of Commons. I suppose he found, as did, that its members are drawn from every section of the community. But he is now a member here, and so by the "governing classes" he may possibly mean your Lordships' House. But our powers are now so limited that we can hardly come into that category. I suppose that I, myself, may be regarded as being a member of the "governing classes," in the sense that I am a member of the Government. In that sense I may be a member of the "governing classes," but I have never heard any of the other members of that class give vent to any of the sentiments to which the noble Lord drew attention. I do not believe that his suggestion has any foundation in fact at all. I was a little bit shocked, I must confess, to hear these monstrous accusations bandied about as coming from unspecified sections of the community without the supporting weight of any evidence behind them. I agree with the noble Lord's main thesis, but he invariably spoils his case by the arguments he uses in support of it, arguments which, I am sorry to say, often make far more foes for him than they do friends.
In spite of what the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, said, the extent of Anti-Semitic feeling here is very much exaggerated, and has been very greatly exaggerated in debate this afternoon. There are, of course, moments of tension in a war when suspicions may very naturally arise, and amongst them, in some people, suspicion against the Jews, especially foreign Jews who are refugees in this country. But British toleration is very great. I do not believe that these feelings really go very deep, and, moreover, I am convinced that, when the emergency is over, they will disappear again as they have always done in the past. I agree strongly with the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, that we should discourage such feelings in any way we can, and I hope that the debate this afternoon will have that effect. Lord Wedgwood seemed, if I may use so disrespectful an 359 expression, to "scratch about" to find some examples to support his main contention, but he discovered far too few upon which to found any case at all. Even there, most of the things he said were inaccurate and were not, in my view, relevant to any charge of Anti-Semitism, because they were not concerned with action taken against Jews as Jews.
I will give an example of what I mean. The noble Lord referred to the treatment of refugees in this country. He suggested that these Jewish refugees—because he only referred to Jewish refugees—were refused employment here, were neglected, and were given no encouragement to take part in the war effort. If he will forgive me, that is not true. While I can make no differentiation between Jewish refugees and other refugees, because they are all treated exactly alike, it is not true that they have not been encouraged to take part in the war effort. They are, in fact, at present being very widely employed. I should like to quote to the noble Lord the answer given by my honourable friend the Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Labour and National Service in another place on this particular point. Speaking on November 27, 1941, the Parliamentary Secretary said:
The Government recognize that in the foreign population of this country we have a valuable addition to our man-and woman-power, of which the most effective use should be made…The international Labour Branch of the Ministry of Labour was set up for the purpose of finding employment for foreign workers…The Government training schemes for munition work are open to them. … The result up to the present is that, in addition to service in the Armed Forces, many thousands of foreign men and women are making a most useful contribution to our war effort in many fields. It is remarkable how smoothly this process of absorption has taken place in spite of differences of language and custom.So really there is no substance in the suggestion which the noble Lord made with regard to that matter.Then he referred to another matter which particularly affects me—namely, to 34 German Jewish internees at Jamaica. First of all, I would point out that he said that they were interned because they were Jews. Again, with all respect, that is not true. They were interned originally because they were German Jews. If they had been English Jews, Scottish Jews, Irish Jews, or Australian Jews they would 360 not have been interned. It was not a case of Anti-Semitism. With this war on, they, as German nationals, were in the ordinary course interned. He said none of them had been examined. Once more, my Lords, that is not the truth. They have been examined again and again, and, out of 34, 10 have already been released.
§ LORD WEDGWOODHow long ago?
§ LORD WEDGWOODNone since then?
VISCOUNT CRANBORNEPerhaps the noble Lord will allow me to finish. The reason why the remainder were not released was that the security officials in Jamaica reported against releasing these particular people. The noble Lord approached me about this matter not long ago, and I told him at that time that, long before he took up this business, before he approached me, I had looked into the matter and had recommended a re-examination of their case. That re-examination is to take place shortly. The story told by the noble Lord this afternoon is a compete travesty of the facts. Then he drew attention to two cases which had recently taken place in the British Courts. He referred to an old lady who had been sentenced to six months' imprisonment for pilfering a pot of marmalade. Certainly that seems, on the face of it, a very formidable sentence. But what are the facts about this lady? She was a woman who had already been convicted four times for shop-lifting. She was a notorious shop-lifter.
§ LORD WEDGWOODIs it not the case that every time the articles involved were below the value of a shilling?
VISCOUNT CRANBORNEIt is not really a question of the value of what was taken. The point is that at the present time there is a great shortage of goods, and there is a danger to the community in this practice of shop-lifting. Knowing that, and knowing that the woman had already been convicted four times, the court naturally felt it had to make an example in her case, with the object of deterring others. These facts, which are all relevant to the case, were not divulged to the House by the noble Lord this afternoon, as they should have been. It was disingenuous on his part not to give the full facts of the case. I must say that 361 I deplore, and hope the House also deplores, these reckless charges against the impartiality of British justice which, as your Lordships know very well, has been above reproach for many centuries. The impression the noble Lord gave here was that British justice is corrupt, and that it is corrupt in the sense that it is affected by political considerations. That, my Lords, is untrue and he knows it is untrue. It is no good saying that sort of thing. I cannot understand a man in the responsible position of the noble Lord making irresponsible comments and remarks of that kind.
Then he raised another case, the case of a gentleman called Mr. Simon Perlmann, of whom he had personal knowledge; and he made a very sad story of it indeed. I am quite prepared to accept that; but the fact remains that Mr. Perlmann was found guilty of a very serious offence. He had concealed—and this is not in dispute—dollar investments at a moment when this country was in desperate need of dollars. If he was a refugee it seems to me the position becomes really rather worse, because he was then taking advantage of a country which had given him asylum from his enemies. He was fined, as the noble Lord said, £5,000 or six months imprisonment. But what the noble Lord did not say, and perhaps did not know, was that on appeal this was reduced to a fine of £2,000 or three months' imprisonment. Mr. Perlmann, I understand, either found himself unable to pay, or refused to pay, and therefore he had to go to prison. But so far as I can see, he had committed this offence, and it cannot justly he said that he was not properly sentenced. It was a very serious offence at the time. I remember a good many cases, and other noble Lords I am sure do also, of Gentiles who committed similar offences and who received equally heavy sentences, and I am quite certain you cannot build up a case for Anti-Semitic administration of justice on cases of that kind.
Finally, the noble Lord made, I thought, rather a severe attack upon the Australian and Canadian Governments. I cannot reply for both Governments because I am only responsible for His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom. But I must confess that I think it was exceedingly unfortunate that the noble Lord attacked those other Govern- 362 ments who, out of pure generosity and with no obligation at all upon them, accepted those refugees from here, not only Jews, but other refugees from Nazi oppression, removed them from the danger and gave them hospitality. I must say that the very interesting and useful contribution made by the noble Lord, Lord Marley, at the end of this debate, did show how false the impression was that was given early in the debate by the noble Lord, Lord Wedgwood, and how sympathetic the interest of the Canadian Government has been in these people for whom they had made themselves responsible. Indeed, he said they were so satisfied there that the great majority of them refused to come back to this country.
I was therefore driven to the conclusion, if the noble Lord will forgive my saying so, that consciously or unconsciously he seemed to want, not that Jews should be discriminated against, but that they should occupy a privileged position. To that of course the British people would never agree, and what is more, the Jews themselves would not want it, because they know perfectly well that would be the quickest and surest way of promoting Anti-Semitism. But if the noble Lord's Motion has been put down merely to obtain an assurance that His Majesty's Government are not Anti-Semitic, that is what I may call a very easy ball for one to hit a six off, and I am very ready to give him that assurance absolutely and in the most unqualified manner. I would also add with regard to the suggestions made by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, that we appreciate immensely the spirit in which they were offered and I will certainly transmit them to the proper quarter.
I have come to the end of what I have to say, but in conclusion I would just appeal to the noble Lord, Lord Wedgwood, most earnestly to stop these senseless and baseless attacks which he makes that have really no foundation in fact. They do not do him any good; they do not do the Jews any good. They only distress those of us who are his friends. I do beg of him, that, in this battle for the rights and liberties of the Jews as of everybody else, in which we, no less than he, are engaged, he should henceforth divert his broadsides to the enemy, and not keep them exclusively for those who are fighting by his side.
§ LORD WEDGWOODMy Lords, I suppose my memory is going but I do not think I said a word about Canada or Australia in my speech.
§ LORD WEDGWOODThere is no censure of either of those countries in that Motion.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNEIs there not? The noble Lord uses these words in the Motion: "To call attention to the attitude shown towards Jewish refugees in Canada and Australia." In the sense in which he meant it that is certainly not a compliment to those countries.
§ LORD WEDGWOODIt certainly was not necessarily criticizing their attitude towards the refugees. I had not said a word about it in my speech which the noble Viscount seems not to have listened to. But the first complaint about me is that I did not attack the French Government for their abominable treatment of the Jews. We do not rule France, but we do rule this country, and it is our business to look after our conduct here. Until we carry out our functions here we had much better not lecture people abroad. The whole strength of our position in the world is that we have every time called attention to the crimes of our own Government and with great advantage to our reputation. The noble Viscount has said that my grounds were not adequate. I do not know what society he mixes in, but three times in the last two days, and from two members of this House, I have heard the same thing, that really there is something to be said for Hitler in his treatment of the Jews. It is common conversation throughout this country to-day. It is the natural excuse of the appeasers which they never forget to make. And what are the facts on that case which I read out? The facts were simply those as given in the Evening Standard.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNEBut the Evening Standard quoted the four previous convictions. Those the noble Lord did not give to the House.
§ LORD WEDGWOODI think she had several tins of marmalade at different times, but it was always the same thing—one tin of marmalade. I mentioned that in my speech; at least I am almost certain 364 I did. I stated exactly what I gathered from the Evening Standard and I called the noble Viscount's attention to that article in the Evening Standard when I wrote to him; it was the only thing I had to give him on the subject. As to whether the attitude of this country to Jewish aliens is friendly or not, I should have said it was perfectly obvious that up to the time of the internment it was friendly. I know perfectly well those people who came here. I had over 200 through my hands in Staffordshire and they were received extremely well by the Staffordshire people. There was no Anti-Semitism there. The refugees went to meetings and addressed gatherings in chapels to raise funds for the refugees, and the attitude of the miners and miners' wives and all the working-class was one of charity and sympathy towards these unfortunate people.
The attitude of the Crypto-Fascists towards these people was definitely hostile and that attitude always has been the mainstay of the Fascist policy. What I complain of is that that policy is shown very largely by the official class of this country. Can you imagine anything more humiliating than to be told "You are coming into the British Army as a labourer, but you are not to be allowed to fight," when we know that all they want to do is to fight. In the last war we had these labour companies. They were largely Chinese. We put in charge of them people who sympathized with Chinese people, who could speak Chinese and liked the Chinese, and the companies were very well conducted. In charge of the navvy battalions we put people like my friend Mr. John Ward, a Member of Parliament who looked after them, and they did their work well. When they were torpedoed off the coast, I remember hearing about John Ward getting up on the bridge and addressing the men like this: "It was just here, where we are sailing now, that the 'Birkenhead' went down without the men breaking ranks. You can do the same. I ask you to behave now as if your whole life up to now had been a preparation for this moment." That was a magnificent piece of oratory, spoilt, I am afraid, by the way in which I rendered it, but those men did behave with perfect courage.
In the last war, you had labour companies working amicably, but this time you put these unfortunate Germans, these refugees, into labour battalions and you 365 do not take the same trouble to see that the people who command them are people in sympathy with them. They complain to me that they are spoken to as "German bastards" and that they are told that all aliens ought to be interned. That is not comradeship, it is not the spirit that we had in the last war. These people should be treated as English people, but they will never be so treated until they are allowed to fight side by side with Englishmen as comrades. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
§ Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.