§ LORD DENMAN had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government whether better facilities than exist at present can be given to managing directors of firms employed on Government work and other responsible persons concerned, to enable them to view arms and equipment captured from the enemy; and to move for Papers.
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, I can explain in a very few minutes the purport of the question I have on the Paper. It is a question that suggests that facilities might be given to engineers and others engaged on Government work to examine arms and equipment captured from the enemy. I am well aware that such 803 facilities already exist, but I do not think that the present arrangements are as good as they might be, and I am quite sure they are not so good as those which existed in the last war. Then it was a comparatively easy matter to get an order to examine captured machines, which were assembled at a central depot conveniently situated in London. Passes were issued from an office in Kingsway. There was little difficulty in obtaining them, and no limit was placed on the number of representatives of any one firm desirous of examining such machines. To-day, if you apply to the Ministry of Production, this is the kind of answer you receive: "Information as to enemy practice is readily made available to contractors engaged on corresponding work in this country provided application is made through the proper channels." In the case of aircraft the application has to be made through the Society of British Aircraft Constructors, who make the necessary arrangements with the Royal Air Force establishment concerned, which I may say is situated in the country.
§ I have learnt something of these matters from the managing director of a large firm which supplies appliances that are indispensable to all aeroplane engines, all tank engines, motor cars, and motor cycles that are used in Libya. They are also fitted to all planes operating in this country to-day. This gentleman, who is himself a member of the Society of British Aircraft Constructors and who is, as your Lordships may imagine, not unknown in the armament world, reckons that it takes him about a week to get the necessary permission. If it takes him as long as that, it is reasonable to suppose it would take longer in the case of an unknown engineer who is not a member of this society. One suggestion I have to make is that this process might somehow be speeded up. I would also suggest that it should be quite possible to grant permanent passes to heads of firms employed on Government war work, or to their accredited representatives, for the purpose of viewing these enemy machines. In the last war, as I have said, there was a depot situated in London. No doubt there are excellent reasons why the depot or depots—because there are more than one—should be situated in the country, but I assume we have many of these machines captured from the enemy in 804 this country, and I make the further suggestion that it might be possible to place a subsidiary depot in London and another in the North of England where these machines could be inspected.
§ At Cairo, I am told, it is the case today that there is a regular war museum of captured tanks, etc. I would like to say here that I hope that some of these are shipped home promptly so that experts at home may have an opportunity of examining them, and especially I would say that this should refer to the tanks and guns used by the Germans in Libya. The manufacturer to whom I have just referred heard by accident that the appliances in which he is interested were to be seen with captured aircraft at a Royal Air Force establishment. The Germans and Italians have copied our designs in this matter, and naturally it is of interest to him to see exactly how they have done it, and whether they have improved on our designs. I submit that things of this kind ought not to be left to chance. As a general rule firms that are concerned, with this work should be notified when some machine in which a manufacturer is directly interested has arrived from Egypt or from some other theatre of war. I say advisedly "as a general rule," because it may be the case that with a new type of machine Government designers and experts want the first opportunity of examining it, or in the case of a new type of machine that may have been captured it may be that the War Department concerned does not wish the enemy to know anything about the fact. But subject to these exceptions, I suggest that the firms concerned ought to be notified.
§ I make these suggestions with diffidence because I have no expert knowledge of these matters, but I hope that possibly they may be considered by the Government Departments concerned. I may say that had my noble friend Lord Hankey been present he would have spoken in support of my proposals. I would remind your Lordships that Lord Hankey has only lately given up the post of Chairman of the Scientific Advisory Committee and of the Enginering Advisory Committee, so that he speaks with considerable "authority on these points. I would just add that it does seem to me that if these facilities can be more readily granted than they are to-day it is quite 805 possible that an engineer who is quite unknown to-day may devise improvements on German and Italian armaments or may hit on an invention that would be of real use to our war effort. I beg to move.
§ THE MINISTER OF WORKS AND PLANNING (LORD PORTAL)My Lords, in answering the Motion of my noble friend Lord Denman, in which he suggests that improved facilities should be given to managing directors of firms employed on Government work and other responsible persons to enable them to view captured arms and equipment, I would point out that, as your Lordships will realize, this subject really concerns three Government Departments, the Admiralty, the Ministry of Aircraft Production and the Ministry of Supply. I have been in consultation with the three Departments, with one of which I was associated for four or five months, and in all cases I have discussed it with the Minister concerned. I think the best thing, as my noble friends will agree, is to say what is being done and then see what more, if possible, might be done.
In the case of the Admiralty it is the regular practice to make use of, and to impart to firms, information about design, technique and manufacturing processes which may be gained from the examination of captured enemy equipment, and no difficulties are placed in the way of firms obtaining this information when it is in the national interest that they should have it. National interest is a point which the noble Lord made, and in some cases it may not be in the national interest to do as he suggests. It is quite impossible to lay down any general rule on this matter because there are cases in which it is in the highest degree: necessary that we should not disclose to persons who are not immediately concerned the state of our knowledge of enemy weapons or equipment. It must therefore be left to the appropriate Department to decide when it is, or is not, in the national interest that facilities should be given for the examination of captured enemy equipment.
As regards aircraft production, I have discussed this point with the Minister of that Department. He tells me that whenever an aeroplane or valuable piece of equipment comes into their hands in this country, they invite the chief designers of leading fighter, bomber or air-cooled 806 engine firms to examine the aircraft. If the aircraft is undamaged test pilots are invited to fly it. They also give full facilities to the technical Press to view captured aircraft and to describe them in technical periodicals. The Minister of Aircraft Production knows of no complaint that facilities to aircraft firms to view captured material are inadequate.
As regards the Ministry of Supply, they have a staff of tank and weapon specialists who are under the command of the Commander-in-Chief Middle East, and transmit any information on technical matters to the Departments concerned at the War Office and Ministry of Supply. Specimens of all captured weapons are sent back from the Middle East to the War Office, which provides the Ministry with its requirements for inspecting and testing them. Recently captured tanks have been brought back, examined and careful reports prepared by tank-producing firms. I myself have seen these reports and I can assure your Lordships that they are most thorough in every detail. Complete drawings have been prepared by manufacturing specialists doing similar work in this country and are embodied in a final report which has been circulated to all concerned. I was looking at the latest reports to-day upon the tanks that have come back. There were complete descriptions and analyses and photographs of turrets and armaments, brakes, gear boxes and cooling systems of the tanks. I think they were extremely well done and very elaborate in their details.
I would like to point out to your Lordships some difficulties. I do not wish to make any excuse, but there is a world of difference between this war and the last. In the last war we were fighting mostly in France, which is quite close to us, and it was much easier to send weapons over to this country than it is to do so at the present time when the fighting is being done a long way off in the East. But that is being attended to I think in the best way possible. As to the remarks and suggestions of my noble friend Lord Denman on the question of increasing the facilities he indicated, I would like to say on behalf of His Majesty's Government that I shall bring them to the consideration of the three Ministries concerned, bearing in mind what he said as to what happened in the last war, and I hope that will prove satisfactory to him.
LORD DENMANMy Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord for his reply. I do not want to continue the discussion and ask leave to withdraw my Motion.
§ Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.