HL Deb 23 May 1940 vol 116 cc398-411

4.35 p.m.

Brought from the Commons, and read 1a.

Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended:

LORD TEMPLEMORE

My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. The Bill is a matter of urgency, in the same way as the Bill which has just been moved by my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack; but I think that, before I come to the Bill, your Lordships might like me to say a few words about the formation of the Local Defence Volunteer organisation, its duties and so on. The decision to form this organisation was made on the 12th of this month. The idea originated from a desire to help to resist this very formidable new force which the enemy is employing by the dropping of people called "parachutists" in the country and in towns, where they are evidently creating, to say the least of it, a very great nuisance behind our lines in France, just as they did in Norway. On the 14th of the month, two days later, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for War made a broadcast and denned the nature of the parachute menace, and explained why it was considered necessary to supplement existing measures of defence by the formation of a volunteer organisation which would secure the rapid intervention of an armed force no matter where the parachutists should land.

In this respect, as my right honourable friend pointed out, he was calling on a hitherto untapped source of defence, and the result of his appeal has really been very wonderful indeed. By May 20, over a quarter of a million volunteers had come forward, and in many districts units have already been formed and rifles and ammunition have been issued. The response has been a very remarkable one all over the country, and I should like to quota as an instance, if your Lordships will allow me to do so, the case of the small country town which I know best, and which has a population of from three to four thousand inhabitants. Within forty-eight hours of the Secretary of State's appeal, 150 men of all classes had registered at the police station, and I am sure that by this time their number has about trebled. A distinguished Brigadier-General whom I know very well, aged 73, has registered his name, giving his age as 61, and a distinguished Major-General, bearing a very distinguished name indeed, and who served in the late war, aged 78, has given his age as 64 and has also enrolled. I hope that both those gallant officers will be accepted, because I am quite sure that they will do exceedingly well. Those examples are typical of what is going on all over the country.

I should like to say a word as to the organisation and the way it is working. The Local Defence Volunteer organisation is based on the existing military areas, each of which is divided into a number of zones. Each zone in its turn is subdivided into groups, further subdivisions being into companies, platoons and sections. At the head of each zone and group is a volunteer organiser. The Commanders of the military areas, after consultation with the Lords-Lieutenant of the counties, have appointed voluntary area organisers, who in turn have appointed the zone organisers and through them the organisers for the groups. All members of the Force, both organisers and volunteers, give their services free, but at the same time it has been decided that certain out-of-pocket expenses should be admissible. For instance, free petrol or third-class railway fares are to be allowed for official journeys by area, zone, and group organisers. Office expenditure up to £10 for postage, stationery and such matters is allowed for zone organisers. But what is perhaps of the greatest importance is that compensation for disabilities attributable to service is permissible on the same scale as for private soldiers. As regards uniform, the uniform which His Majesty's Government propose will consist of overalls and field service caps, or civilian clothes with khaki armbands stitched to the sleeve, with the letters "L.V.D." stencilled on the armbands in white. Volunteers wearing civilian clothes with armbands will be issued with field service caps. Up to date, 98,000 overalls have been issued, 250,000 service dress caps are available, and a similar number of armbands is on order. The operational control, organisation and training of the Local Defence Volunteers are all under the orders of the Commander-in-Chief of the Home Forces.

These are the lines on which the organisation is being built up, and I am sure your Lordships will appreciate the debt which the country owes to the voluntary organisers and those who have enrolled in the Local Defence Volunteers. Our trouble has been to meet the almost overwhelming response and absorb the vast number of applicants into the newly formed organisation. I should like to say before I conclude, that this Force has been raised for three main purposes: first of all, for the purpose of observation and information; secondly, to keep these enemy parties, if and when they land in any part of the country, from free movement by blocking roads and so forth, which can be so easily done by countrymen who know the way about the lanes and villages of our countryside; and, thirdly, to assist in patrolling vulnerable spots, which cannot, anyhow at the moment, be looked after by either the Regular Army or by the defence battalions at home.

Now I come to the Bill, which has one operative clause. The Bill ensures that there will be no question of reducing the strength of the classes that come under the National Service Act owing to the fact that some members of these classes may have enlisted in the Local Defence Volunteers, and it enables such men to serve as part-time Volunteers until their calling-up time comes. This is secured by Clause 1, Clause 2 being merely the Short Title and so forth. I think I have said all I can usefully say with regard to this Bill. If any of your Lordships have any questions to put, I shall be very ready to do my best to answer them. In the meantime I hope that your Lordships will consider this Bill, as do the Government, as a matter of extreme urgency, and allow us to get it through all its stages at the present time. I beg to move.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Templemore.)

4.44 p.m.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, I only want to put a question to my noble friend. I am sure your Lordships are very much obliged to him for the clear way in which he has described this Force and shown how urgent it is. I know from my own private knowledge that the response of which he speaks has been very satisfactory and I have no doubt that in many counties, as in my own county, the organisation has already proceeded very far indeed, and shows every sign of being successful. But I wonder whether that is the case all over the country. I do not expect my noble friend to be able to tell us that, but I do hope he will tell us that precautions will be taken that there should be some form of inspection from the War Office to see that counties which happen to be less forward than they should be are brought up to the point. I do not think there will be the slightest reluctance among the population. The number of recruits will be found everywhere, but it is the organisation which may hang fire unless there is proper inspection. I venture to put that question to my noble friend.

4.45 P.m.

LORD STRABOLGI

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Snell has asked me to speak on this Bill for the Labour Party. First of all, I desire to thank my noble friend opposite, Lord Templemore, for his lucid explanation. This is another overdue Bill. It should, of course, have been thought of as soon as we knew what the Germans were doing in Norway, which was a month ago, and they also used this method of parachute landings in Poland at the very beginning of the present war. However, this is no time for recriminations. The new Government, at any rate, are making up for lost time, and I welcome it very much. In one part of the country that I know, where the response has been just as good, I am sure, as in the noble Marquess's county, this new Force is called the Reception Committee. They look upon themselves as being the people who give the first reception in England, and a very warm reception indeed, to anyone from the enemy forces who tries to land here with hostile intent. I venture to accept the invitation of my noble friend opposite and to ask some questions, for however urgent this Bill is, there are certain vital matters which must be properly handled, as the noble Marquess has already shown, if this Force is to be a success, and there is no time to lose.

There is one very important matter that I feel bound to bring to your Lordships' attention, and I hope any members of the Government present here will see that this is conveyed to the proper quarter. It is most essential that all our seaports should be watched. To put it figuratively, one may be looking up into the skies and the same sort of thing which happened in Copenhagen, Bergen and elsewhere, may occur in our own ports; apparently innocent vessels under neutral flags—as was the case at Trondheim under the American flag—may come in filled up with hidden German soldiers. The ordinary inspection service should be adjusted accordingly, because the ordinary inspection service at the ports of ships coming in is not devised to deal with this particular menace. I dare say the Admiralty are aware of this. I have done my best to bring it to their notice through such channels as are open to me. I have had certain representations already from the seaports as to the need of tightening up the system of inspection of all vessels entering.

I think also you must not overlook the services of the old sailors of the Royal Navy and the Mercantile Marine. Every man in the Royal Navy is taught to use a rifle the moment he is enrolled, and is kept up-to-date in the use of the rifle, and of the machine-gun too. A great many men of the Mercantile Marine also are accustomed to using rifles, and they are very fine material if you can organise them. I have made the suggestion already that you should appeal to their particular sense of prestige, which all seafaring men feel. You might put an anchor on their armlet and call them the Marine Section; you will get splendid service. You will need these men on the coasts, just as much as men will be needed in the country districts. I put that suggestion to the Secretary of State and he has been kind enough to write in a sympathetic way. I am not expecting miracles, but I hope the War Office will not overlook the thousands of suitable men of seafaring experience who are too old to go to sea or, for one reason or another, are in other occupations, and who will be only too glad to join this Force.

My noble friend mentioned an organisation for blocking the roads. That does not only concern motor vehicles. The Germans landed aeroplanes on wide highways in Holland. It may be necessary to block highways against aeroplanes. That is a different problem from blocking roads against motor vehicles. You can block a road against aeroplanes in such a way that motor vehicles can use it. Also you must have organisation beforehand. I am sure this cannot have been overlooked but so many things have been overlooked in the past. I trust the present Government, but we intend to keep an eye on it. There must be provision for blocking possible landing places. The most important landing place, from our point of view, in Norway near Narvik was denied to the Germans by the initiative of the local Norwegian commander who covered the landing ground with logs, and when we were ready to use it the logs were removed and that saved the situation up there. All this needs careful organisation. I am slightly alarmed when the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, talks about War Office inspection. The idea of retired Major-Generals such as the noble Lord, Lord Templemore, described, being put in charge of this organisation, fills me with some apprehension.

LORD TEMPLEMORE

Really I cannot let that go. These distinguished general officers about whom I spoke, and others, have enlisted intending to be private soldiers, as I have done myself.

LORD STRABOLGI

I share my noble friend's admiration to the full. No one has more admiration than I have for retired field officers, especially those who have served all their time in India, or are veterans of the South African War and other campaigns, but this is a new force to meet new conditions. Leave it as much as possible to the local people. Tell them to go about it in their own way, and their natural leaders will arise. With regard to weapons, there are two problems. The first is the provision of arms. Two hundred and fifty thousand men are not enough. That, of course, the Government recognise. You need at least one million for this service. You will get them; they are there. You will need a good deal of armament for them. In the first place you can only give them ordinary small arms—I shall come to the question of other arms in a moment. Are you mobilising all the available rifles in the country? I do not mean military rifles, I mean sporting rifles. This is a makeshift force to start with, but it will be a magnificent addition to the defences of the country. In the meantime you must give them arms at once. Never mind if they do not all use the same ammunition. A shepherd with a Mannlicher rifle is of much more use than a shepherd with no rifle at all. Shot guns also you must mobilise. I do not know how many shot guns there are in the country, but the number must be enormous. Nearly everyone in the country districts has a shot gun, and a shot gun with a proper charge is a formidable weapon. Later, of course, and as soon as possible, as these men are organised better and trained, you have got to give them sub-machine guns and hand grenades. Parachutists land very heavily armed, and though you can ambush them with the weapons available, you must give your defence corps—your reception committee—hand grenades and submachine guns, and teach them to use them.

I come to the vexed question of whether these arms should be issued or kept at central depots. In my district, I am informed, I can keep my own rifle, and I propose to do so. The intention is to let us keep our own rifles in our own homes. I hope that will be made general. The idea of telephoning a warning that parachutists have landed, and that one must go to the depot to collect one's arms, is realty grotesque. You have got to issue arms to people to keep in their own homes, because what we have got to avoid is that these miscreants should land and take possession of buildings, dig themselves in, and make themselves strong points on farms. If every man is his own garrison, in his own home, it will be more difficult for the parachutists. The Swiss soldier keeps his own rifle and ammunition in his own home. When the English bowmen were the terror of Europe every yeoman had his own weapons and harness in his own home. You must come back to the same state of organisation. In Greece to-day every shepherd carries his own rifle on the hills. Every shepherd in Scotland must carry his own rifle. The idea that he should go to Inverness or Perth and draw it when the trouble comes is—forgive my saying so—typical of the War Office.

I have not heard of any organisation for women in this connection. I do not mean as combatants; but women can perform useful service as messengers, telephonists, drivers and so on. They should be encouraged and a great many women who have not been able to join the various uniformed corps would be available. The Dutch women gave a lot of trouble to the parachutists by dropping furniture on their heads and I am sure Scottish and English women would give a good account of themselves. There are all kinds of auxiliary duties they can perform. I hope also we are going to organise, as soon as possible, all available cars or motor vehicles in each district. This is a parochial organisation which you need so that when a landing or air invasion takes place you can mobilise vehicles and collect men and deal with the trouble at once.

Here is another matter I submit to your Lordships which is very important indeed. One of the troubles at the present moment in France and Belgium is the stream of refugees blocking the roads, flying from the terror of the enemy. If we have any trouble of that kind in this country we want to avoid that at all costs. These refugees only form a target to be bombed or machine gunned from the air by these criminals. The people must stay in their own homes, lock and barricade themselves in. Because there has been a landing of a thousand parachutists in Essex say, followed by thirty or forty troop-carrying planes, the whole of Essex should not be panic stricken and evacuated. That is the problem. We should immediately tell people to stay where they are. The more you have enrolled in this Defence Corps and the more arms which are issued the better. A man with a weapon in his hand is a different proposition from one who has no weapon and that in itself will help to steady the population. One of the most important functions of this Corps will be to steady the population, to tell them to stay in their own homes and not to block the roads and play the enemy's game by panicking and running away.

Now I come to another question. I am sorry I have not given my noble friend notice, but I dare say he will be able to let me know later. Is the wonderful organisation of the City of London being used at the present time? The authoritative people I have talked to mostly talk about country squires and game keepers—very important people, I agree—but in the City of London you have a marvellous organisation for raising volunteers—a hereditary organisation dating from the days of the trained bands. The noble Marquess will remember the great services of the City of London in the last war and in the South African War in the matter of raising bodies of men. You have a machinery for this purpose in the City of London. It raised National Guards in the last war and in this war it raised the Pioneer Corps. Is this being all departmentalised in the War Office? If you are not taking advantage of this organisation you are losing something that can be very valuable indeed. I also must put in a plea for greater use being made of the machinery of the British Legion, the Old Contemptibles, the Old Comrades and other bodies of that kind. I do not wish to put the new corps under the control of the British Legion, but if you can use the British Legion you have a guarantee that you will only get men of good character. You do not want to arm your potential Fifth Column. The Legion and similar bodies will deal with dangerous characters who cannot be trusted with arms.

The other suggestion I feel compelled to make is this. You have a great opportunity here to mobilise and use the youth of the country between the ages of sixteen and nineteen who at present are in many cases either idle or only half used. I hope Lord Elibank is not too shocked by what I am saying. Boys between this age of sixteen and nineteen for this purpose can be very useful indeed. They are too young to go into the Army. I do not know that they will be as useful in my noble friend's town as the old gentlemen, but at any rate they will be of value. In case Lord Elibank is really shocked, I may tell him that I was taught and drilled to use a rifle as a midshipman when I was sixteen and was expected to make use of it if required? The Germans are using young lads of this kind. We have these organisations, such as the Rovers, to which reference has been made as a nucleus to build upon. I assure my noble friend Lord Elibank that boys of sixteen to nineteen can be used with great advantage. I have attempted to make suggestions in a helpful way. Our Party only want to help this Force and assist it in every way we can. It is most urgently required. I congratulate my noble friend on bringing this Bill in now. I only wish to add for my Party that we will facilitate its passage and give it all the help we can—and we have influence with our members in the industrial districts—so as to make the new body a success.

5.2 p.m.

VISCOUNT ELIBANK

My Lords, I rise only to ask a question, but first of all I should like to tell the noble Marquess that as far as my part of the country is concerned—that is from Edinburgh southward—we are very far advanced in the work of organisation and enlistment. Perhaps he may be comforted to know that. I should like to refer to what the noble Lord said just now. I did not raise my eyebrows at the idea that these boys of sixteen to nineteen should be utilised in connection with this defence. I think the noble Lord said he first used a rifle at sixteen. I can claim to have used one at thirteen.

LORD STRABOLGI

I first used a rabbit rifle when I was ten, but I was enrolled as a midshipman and trained to take part with a rifle at the age of sixteen when required to do so.

VISCOUNT ELIBANK

I did not expect to be able to compete with the noble Lord. What I really raised my eyebrows at was the suggestion that these boys were not being utilised. I am sure, certainly in the countryside, that boys of fifteen and upwards are being sought for in every direction in order to undertake agricultural work. If the noble Lord can find a boy for me at the present moment for my garden, I shall be very pleased to employ him at once and pay a very good wage. The question that I wish to ask the noble Lord is this. As I understand it this Force is said to be a military force under military organisation. There is nothing to indicate whether this Force will be under military law. I ask that question because there is considerable doubt in the part of the country that I know among our area commanders as to whether this Force is under military law or not, and I venture to suggest that it is very important, if it is not under military law, that it should be placed under military law. I do not see how you can have an organised body of this kind armed with rifles unless it comes under military law. If the noble Lord is not able to answer that question now I hope he will look into it and make it clear in the minds of everyone who has anything to do with this matter or is organising it.

5.4 p.m.

LORD DARYNGTON

My Lords, I want to ask one simple question. I do not know whether the Government have made full provision for the rifles that are required, and I would ask my noble friend whether it would not be possible to let it be known, if arms are required, that they should be sent to a certain district or place. I am sure there are at the present time in this country a very large number of rifles to which no one pays any attention at all, and which might be of very great value if it was widely known that they were really required. If a request was made for them I am sure there would be a ready response.

5.5 p.m.

LORD TEMPLEMORE

My Lords, I am pleased your Lordships have given such a good reception to this Bill. I will reply to some of the questions that have been put to me. First of all a very important question was raised by my noble friend below the Gangway, Lord Salisbury, who asked whether recruiting for the Force had been uniformly good in all parts of the country. I am not able to answer that at the moment. But he also raised a question about inspection, and as to that I consider as an old soldier, as he is himself, that if you are to have any kind of military force at all it must be a proper one and therefore you must have some form of inspection sooner or later. The Force is under the Commander-in-Chief of the Home Forces, Sir Walter Kirke, and I have little doubt that very shortly he will arrange for the inspection of the units in different parts of the country. I am quite sure when this inspection takes place that it will not be made, as my noble friend opposite rather suggested, by these old gentlemen, but will be made by the properly trained officers belonging to the staff of the General Officer Commanding the Home Forces.

My noble friend Lord Strabolgi put various questions and made a number of suggestions. First, as regards watching the seaports for ships with false flags, I am sure that that is very much in the mind of His Majesty's Government and will not be lost sight of. The noble Lord also raised the question of not refusing the services of old sailors for this Force. I am quite convinced that they will not be refused. I think I am right in saying that in the southern counties of England—certainly it is so in the county that I know best—an old sailor is almost a more common object than an old soldier, and I have little doubt that many hundreds and possibly thousands of old sailors are already enrolled in this body. I am quite certain that they will be most useful. As to the matter of blocking roads not only against vehicles but against aircraft, I will have that matter brought to the notice of the proper authorities.

My noble friend asked whether sporting rifles and guns were to be used. Reading the debate which took place yesterday I gather that they will be permitted to be used if people possess them. As to whether rifles are to be issued to the men or stored in depots, I am afraid I cannot answer that question offhand, but I will inquire and let my noble friend know privately, if he will allow me to do so. I have noted what he said about the employment of women. As to the organisation of the City of London for this important work, my noble friend Lord Lucan, who is Chairman of the Territorial Association for the City of London and knows a lot about it, informs me that not only in the City of London but in the County of London also the various organisations are being utilised under the able direction of Major-General Sir Cecil Pereira who was known very well indeed as the commander many years ago of one of the London Territorial Divisions.

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE

At the present moment he is Chairman of the County Association.

LORD TEMPLEMORE

I am much obliged to my noble friend. I understand that he has been appointed to look after the whole of London.

LORD STRABOLGI

May I be allowed to put this matter right? Sir Cecil Pereira is doing very valuable work on the outskirts of London—in Greater London—but in the City of London the organisation, as far as I can gather, is not being utilised.

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE

Perhaps I might explain that it is the London Command of which Sir Cecil Pereira has been appointed organiser. The London Command includes part of five or six-other counties besides the County of London.

LORD TEMPLEMORE

The noble Lord raised a question about the relationship of the British Legion to this Force. I gather that it was never the intention of the War Office that the Force should be in any way run by the organisation of the British Legion, but I have little doubt that members of the British Legion will be consulted about various matters. I should think they will all join, and their experience and their advice will be extremely useful. The noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, asked whether this Force was to be subject to military law. I have had only a short time to find out, but I understand that that is so. My noble friend Lord Daryington asked a question about rifles and made an exceedingly useful suggestion which I will see is brought to the notice of those in authority. I have answered to the best of my ability the questions which have been raised, and I hope that your Lordships are now ready to come to a decision.

On Question, Bill read 2a; Committee negatived.

Bill read 3a, and passed.