HL Deb 17 October 1939 vol 114 cc1434-40

4.10 p.m.

LORD NEWTON had given Notice that he would ask His Majesty's Government if any further steps have been taken to draw attention to the charges which have been made against the Nazi leaders; and move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, when I called attention to this subject not long ago, I expressed the opinion, which is common on such occasions, that the question was one of considerable importance, especially from the propaganda point of view, and I not only adhere to that statement, but I think I can prove it in a sentence or two. No member of the Government of any importance ever makes a speech without pointing out that our quarrel is not with the German people but with the Nazi Government—that we have no grievance against the German people, but that we have a distinct grievance, as the rest of the civilised world has, against those men who, unfortunately for their fellow citizens, are governing Germany to-day.

When making these observations the other day I made a request to be furnished with specimens of the leaflets which were being circulated and, after considerable difficulty—difficulty experienced not only by myself but by persons in a much more important position, members of the Government—I did succeed in obtaining some of the leaflets, and I confess that the one dealing with this particular question seemed to me of an inadequate nature. And I may remark one curious fact—namely, that this particular leaflet and the others which came to me were actually marked "Secret." These are the documents which have been distributed by hundreds of thousands, if not millions, in Germany. Why be ashamed of it? Why should the Minister, so to speak, apologise in an indirect way for doing anything of the kind? It seems to me absolutely unintelligible.

To proceed, I say that the solitary leaflet which dealt with the misdeeds of the Nazi Government was of a somewhat bare and unconvincing nature. All that it did was to mention in a sort of incidental way, as if it were an everyday occurrence, that a certain journalist in America had made charges against the Nazi leaders. There was nothing in the shape of a comment at all. One would have thought that if you were circulating news of this description, at all events you would make some remarks upon it. I could imagine a good many remarks upon it that would have occurred to me. One would have been to point out the monstrous fact that these Nazi leaders were inflicting the most severe forms of punishment—imprisonment, fines, and I believe in certain cases even execution—upon people who commit the exact offences which they are charged with themselves. Now everybody knows that it is a penal offence to send money out of Germany. We know, to our cost, that we are not allowed to take out more than 10 marks if we go there, but these gentlemen, somehow or other, appear to have succeeded in transferring enormous sums of money to foreign countries and investing them there. The amount does not matter; it is the action which is illegal. It is just as illegal to send 10 marks abroad as it is to send 1,000.

There cannot be any real doubt as to what happened. The substance of the charges is obviously true—obviously true, I say, because no real attempt has been made to disprove them. The actual amounts are of no importance at all. What is important is whether these Nazi leaders have acted in this way or not, and I submit that it is perfectly clear by inference that they have committed this offence. Well, why should we be afraid to say it? There are two schools of propaganda. There is one which thinks that the proper way to conduct propaganda is by means of suggestion and a kind of infiltration—propaganda conducted in the hope that somehow or other, by some roundabout way, it may reach the enemy country and do a good deal of harm. I should describe it as an oblique way of dealing with the question. The other way is to make a downright attack upon the people whom you want to damage—in this case the Nazi leaders. Imagine what the case would have been if it had been reversed. Supposing, for instance, my noble friend Lord Halifax or the Prime Minister were convicted of doing this kind of thing, contrary to the law of the country, and that they had even gone so far as to have special consignments of, say, butter or coffee sent to them, when there were strict regulations to the contrary. Imagine what would have happened. They would have been held up by the Nazi Press as the enemies of mankind, with whom no human being ought to consort at all.

Personally, I do not in the least approve of the suggestion that we should use so-called kid-glove treatment with the Nazis. The Nazis are not only dishonest, they are brutal, and they cannot understand much beyond force. Therefore I should have no scruple in attacking them by whatever means were provided. Here we were provided with a perfect godsend in the shape of propaganda, and we do not seem to me to be taking advantage of it. I would like to ask the Minister of Information whether he has ever considered the value of repetition. Anybody connected with public life, and Parliamentary life in particular, knows quite well that if you say a thing once, even though it may be perfectly true, very few people pay the smallest attention to it. You have to go on repeating it and to continue doing so until eventually you become an intolerable bore, and then people listen to you. I should like to see the Minister of Information becoming an intolerable nuisance to the Nazi Government in that way, and, instead of relying on the effect of insinuation, by repeating what is said by other people, he might assume a great deal of what is said to be true, and act accordingly. Why, for instance, not circulate this news among neutral countries? My noble friend must have among his employees numerous persons who are skilled in what I will call the art of vituperation, and the talents of these people might well be employed on this particular occasion. You might even resort to pictorial methods. A great deal might be done in that way.

And I do not think it is sufficiently realised that what appear to be quite small and unimportant matters, in propaganda play a very considerable part. If I were in the position of a German Frau or a German workman, I should be very much more interested in hearing that Hitler himself, or Göring, or someone else, had been accumulating large sums of money and large stocks of food whilst I was starving. I should be very much more interested in that than in reading elaborate pamphlets pointing out the duties of democratic Governments and the superiority of those countries over Germany. These are methods which I think we ought not to neglect. Chance has put into our hand a most valuable opportunity. We, unfortunately, are not in a position to dictate to Germans who their Ministers should be, and if they elect to choose as their governors people who resemble gangsters more than anything else, that is their look-out. But what we can do—and what we do not do—is to point out the character of these men and the nature of their actions. I am perfectly certain that vigorous action of that kind would have much more effect than the oblique methods of which I have spoken.

4.20 p.m.

THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION (LORD MACMILLAN)

My Lords, I am indebted to the noble Lord for his exhortations, but I hope I shall not follow them by becoming a bore, which seems to be his main suggestion to me. With regard to the particular topic raised in his Motion, apparently it is not quite so wide as the meaning of these words would bear, because the Notice runs: To ask His Majesty's Government if any further steps have been taken to draw attention to the charges which have been made against the Nazi leaders. The charges made against the Nazi leaders range over almost the whole catalogue of crimes, but the particular charge in question is the charge that they have themselves invested funds abroad. So far as that particular charge is concerned, His Majesty's Government are satisfied that they have obtained the maximum propaganda value from it. There was a leaflet on the subject which was distributed through the air over a large part of Germany, and Mr. Knickerbocker's allegations were given the widest possible publicity by the B.B.C. and the Press, and were also heard in France and in other countries.

It is quite true that there is virtue in repetition. On the other hand, there are other matters on which I think at the moment it is more valuable for us to employ this method of publicity by means of leaflets. It is quite clear that this particular matter has gone home in Germany and has reached its mark. The noble Lord has had experience of propaganda, as his illuminating remarks show, but he will appreciate that it is not always possible to specify in public the methods which are adopted. To do so, of course, would entirely defeat the purpose of the propaganda. And while one welcomes comments and criticisms upon our efforts, if I were an enemy propagandist I would read with much satisfaction many of the criticisms which are made in this country, with a view to counteracting anything that is attempted. It is very easy to criticise our propaganda, and very attractive to our enemies to select the criticisms rather than the praise and in that way to discount and undermine anything which can be done.

Unfortunately, we are all propagandists and we all think ourselves able to criticise matters of propaganda. There is wide scope for difference of opinion upon these things and it is a little unfortunate, I think, if every publication or every step taken to promote our cause abroad should be subjected, I will not say to unfriendly criticism, but shall I say to severe criticism here, which enables our enemies to say, "That is what England thinks of its own propaganda." In that way it makes it almost impossible to carry on propaganda at all, and I would ask for a certain measure of indulgence in that respect, even although some of the productions may not commend themselves to everyone. But as regards this particular matter, its propaganda value was certainly most obvious to us all. I entirely agree with the noble Lord that it was an excellent piece of propaganda to utilise, but in our opinion we have extracted from it all that is to be had from it, and I do not think it would be wise to repeat it now that we have learned from sources which I think are authoritative that it has gone home and has been fully appreciated.

4.24 p.m.

LORD ELTISLEY

My Lords, may I be permitted to draw the Minister's attention to the great importance of effective propaganda in the East? Directly Herr Hitler came into power and office, he realised the exceptional value of propaganda and he seized the opportunity to establish most powerful broadcasting stations for that purpose. I think it is somewhat humiliating to receive correspondence and to hear that the propaganda which we send over to the East is not so clearly heard, is not so well received, and probably the matter transmitted is not so good or so effective, for the people whom it is intended to reach, as is German propaganda. I venture to suggest that it is our business to take steps as far as may be possible to see that the technical transmission and reception of our propaganda is as good as it can be made under modern conditions. We know that there are countries in the Near East which do not receive our propaganda as well as they hear the German propaganda. It is due, we are told, to blind spots. If there are blind spots which intervene, let us move our transmitting stations from our broadcasting places to other centres from which the propaganda can be just as well heard as from the German stations. I hope that not only shall we take great trouble in the preparation of our leaflets, but also that we shall use every possible effort to see that the propaganda reaches those whom we desire should receive it.

4.25 p.m.

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, I really only rise to express my sympathy with my noble friend because he occupies the least enviable position in the Government. A Minister of Propaganda seldom has any friends, but he has innumerable enemies, because everybody has his own ideas on the subject. Personally I think my own ideas are quite correct, and I regret very much not to receive further encouragement from the noble Lord. I cannot help thinking that, the longer he occupies his office, the more he will be urged to show greater activity in the direction which I have ventured to point out this afternoon. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.