HL Deb 30 March 1939 vol 112 cc564-70

Amendments reported (according to Order).

Clause 4:

Powers of Committee on failure of landowner to reduce number of deer.

(4) After consideration of any advice tendered to them by the Advisory Committee in pursuance of the last foregoing subsection, the Department shall have power to do any one or more of the following things, that is to say—

(a) to authorise the occupier of any holding within the area of the deer regulation committee, notwithstanding anything in any contract or agreement between such occupier and his landlord, to kill, with firearms but not otherwise, any female deer found on any moorlands or unenclosed lands forming part of his holding; or

(6) Before authorising any person in pursuance of paragraph (c) of the last foregoing subsection, an occupier shall notify his landlord in writing of the name of such person and shall at the same time certify that he is experienced in the use of firearms, and the occupier shall not authorise that person until the expiry of fourteen days from the date of such notification, or, if within that period the landlord intimates to the occupier and to the deer regulation committee that he objects to such authorisation, until the committee have intimated their approval thereof.

(9) A committee authorised as aforesaid shall not be entitled to enter on the lands at any time between the tenth day of April and the sixteenth day of October in any year and shall, before entering on any lands for the purpose of killing deer thereon, give to the owner and any tenant thereof one week's notice of their intention to do so, and shall allow such owner or tenant, if they so desire, an opportunity of assisting in any operations undertaken for the purpose of reducing the number of deer on such lands.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND moved, in paragraph (a) of subsection (4), to leave out "firearms" and insert "a rifle of not less than.240 calibre or such other firearm as may be approved in writing by the committee." The noble Marquess said: My Lords, the purpose of this Amendment is to meet the wishes which were expressed in the course of the debate on the Committee stage of the Bill. The object of the Amendment is to prevent the wounding of the deer by shot guns and so on, and it is based, therefore, both on humanitarian grounds and grounds of efficiency. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 7, leave out ("firearms") and insert the said new words.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

LORD STRABOLGI

My Lords, I venture to ask a question of the noble Marquess on this Amendment. I see it says "such other firearm as may be approved in writing by the committee." That would in certain circumstances include shot guns, I suppose. I will tell the noble Marquess why I ask this question. I have not intervened during the discussion on this Bill because I am only one of the poor people who occasionally go stalking in Scotland, and I do not own property there. But last Saturday I took part in a deer shoot in England upon one of the derelict estates that the noble Marquess was talking about earlier this afternoon. A herd of deer had been permitted to run wild, and they had taken refuge in thick woods in the Midlands. As they were damaging farmers' crops and orchards, everyone in the neighbourhood was invited to come round and exterminate these vermin, as they had become. We could not use rifles because of the thickness of the woods, and we used buckshot in shot guns. I think, in certain circumstances, that is a humane way of killing, and it does do its work. I would suggest that other firearms should include shot guns for use in very thick scrub where it may be necessary to kill deer for the safety of crops and unsafe to use a rifle.

THE EARL OF MANSFIELD

My Lords, before the noble Marquess replies I should like to say that I agree with the noble Lord opposite, but I think the noble Marquess will bear me out in saying that the case which the noble Lord opposite mentioned, which actually occurs in my own ground, is not one which does happen frequently. Usually deer come down on to ground where it is impossible to get very close to them, and if people fire at them with shot guns or with small bore rifles of.22 calibre, a great deal of unnecessary wounding is done. I imagine however, that "such other firearms" would certainly include the use of a shot gun, which I have no doubt would be permitted when deer have to be shot in thick cover, where the use of a rifle would be impossible from the point of view of killing the deer and also would be dangerous for anyone in the vicinity.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

My Lords, I think what the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, has said is correct. The intention is that normally a person who is authorised to kill deer under the provisions of this clause should have to do so with a rifle of not less than.240 calibre, but there is a proviso, which the noble Lord will see, suggesting "such other firearms as may be approved in writing by the committee." I should assume, therefore, in a case of the kind suggested by the noble Lord, that the Committee would give permission in writing for the use of a particular firearm in which buckshot would be used.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

My Lords, the purpose of the next two Amendments on the Paper—in subsection (6)—is to meet a point which was made, I think, by the noble Earl, Lord Leven, in the course of our discussion in the Committee stage of the Bill. Briefly, the effect would be that the occupier would intimate to the owner and the deer regulation committee the names of the persons proposed. The committee would then consider any objections by the landlord if lodged within fourteen days, and until the committee intimated their approval of the persons to the occupier they could not be authorised. Perhaps I should say a word as to the reason for the substitution of the words "intimate to" for "notify in writing." I have an Amendment down later to Clause 19 under which it is proposed that all intimations given under the various clauses in this Bill shall be in writing. That was in response to a request made by my noble friend the Earl of Airlie. On the assumption that that Amendment will be accepted the words "notify in writing" in this clause would become redundant. I beg to move.

Amendments moved—

Page 4, line 32, leave out ("notify his landlord in writing of") and insert ("intimate to the deer regulation committee and to his landlord")

Page 4, line 35, leave out from ("the") to end of subsection and insert ("deer regulation committee, after considering any objections made by the landlord within fourteen days after such intimation to him, have intimated their approval of the authorisation.")—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND moved, in subsection (9), to leave out "one week's "and insert "not less than ten days'." The noble Marquess said: My Lords, the noble Marquess, Lord Aberdeen, pressed me very much in the course of the discussion on the Committee stage to give a rather longer notice than one week in this clause. I have done my best to meet the noble Marquess, and I am prepared to agree that the notice should be not less than ten days. I hope that he will agree that I have met him reasonably.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 20, leave out ("one week's") and insert ("not less than ten days'").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

LORD SALTOUN

My Lords, my noble friend the Marquess of Aberdeen has asked me to express his regret that he is unable to be here this afternoon. In his name and on behalf of those noble Lords with whom I am associated I should like to thank the noble Marquess very much for having gone so far to meet us, especially in regard to this point.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 5 [Provision for extermination of deer in certain lands]:

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

My Lords, this Amendment is really consequential upon the Amendment which I accepted in the course of the Committee stage of the Bill which had the effect of cutting out from the Bill the provision requiring the erection of deer fences.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 38, leave out from ("Act") to ("shall") in line 39.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 12 [Power of Department to require prevention of damage by rabbits]:

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

My Lords, this is a similar Amendment to that which I have already moved. In view of the Amendment to be proposed to Clause 19, the words "in writing" are unnecessary here.

Amendment moved— Page 9, line 28, leave out ("in writing").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 14:

Amendment of 43 & 44 Vict. c. 47, s. 1.

(2) The Department may, on the application of an occupier of land, and after giving the landlord thereof an opportunity of being heard, sanction the authorisation by such occupier of such number of persons to kill and take ground game on the land otherwise than by the use of firearms in addition to the persons so authorised in pursuance of Section one of the Ground Game Act, 1880, as the Department may, having regard to the extent of the land, think reasonable, and the provisions of the said section with regard to the production by persons authorised by the occupier of the documents by which they are so authorised, shall apply to any person authorised in pursuance of any such sanction as aforesaid in like manner as those provisions apply to persons authorised in pursuance of that section.

(3) The Department may at any time recall or vary any sanction granted under the last foregoing subsection: provided that the number of persons who may be authorised as aforesaid shall not be increased without giving the landlord an opportunity of being heard.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND moved, at the end of subsection (2), to insert: The occupier shall intimate forthwith to the landlord the name of any person authorised by him in pursuance of this subsection. The noble Marquess said: My Lords, This again is an Amendment which I have drafted to meet a point which was brought forward on the Committee stage. The effect of the Amendment which is now proposed will be, firstly, that the occupier will have to intimate in writing to the landlord the names of the persons authorised by him under the subsection, and, secondly, that the Department may at any time require an occupier to withdraw an authorisation which has been given. I think it was my noble friend Lord Mansfield who raised the point on the Committee stage. I then said that I would be very glad to look into it, but that it seemed to me that the Amendment then proposed would necessitate consequential Amendments which it was not possible to put forward at that time. I hope that the noble Earl will think that this Amendment which I am now proposing and the next Amendment on the Paper will meet the point which he had in mind.

Amendment moved—

Page 10, line 28, at end insert: ("The occupier shall intimate forthwith to the landlord the name of any person authorised by him in pursuance of this subsection.") —(The Marquess of Zetland.)

THE EARL OF MANSFIELD

My Lords, my noble friends and myself are very grateful to the noble Marquess for his kindness in meeting us. We perhaps would have preferred the Amendment that we put down, as it goes a little further, but at the same time there is no doubt that the Amendments which the noble Marquess has put on the Paper go a very considerable way to meet what might have resulted possibly in some intolerable situation arising on occasion. I beg to thank him sincerely.

LORD SALTOUN

My Lords, I would also like to thank the noble Marquess for a very great improvement in the Bill.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

My Lords, I have already dealt with the next Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 10, line 29, after ("time") insert:

  1. ("(a) require an occupier to withdraw any authorisation; or
  2. (b)").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 19 [Service of notices, etc.]:

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

My Lords, I have already referred to the next Amendment, the effect of which will be that any notices which have to be given under the provisions of this Bill shall be in writing. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 11, line 31, after ("Act") insert ("shall be in writing and").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.