HL Deb 27 July 1939 vol 114 cc617-24

Amendments reported (according to Order).

Clause 5:

Registration of persons carrying on business in the industry and of merchants.

(2) After the expiration of the period of three months beginning at the commencement of this Act, no person shall carry on business in the industry unless he is registered in the general register as so carrying on business, or an application to be so registered has been duly made by him and is under consideration; and any person who contravenes this subsection shall, on summary conviction, be liable—

3.27 p.m.

LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "three" and insert "two." The noble Lord said: My Lords, most of the Amendments in my name which appear on the Paper are drafting, but this is rather more than a drafting Amendment and may require a little explanation. Subsection (2) of Clause 5 prevents any person from carrying on business in the industry unless he is registered in the general register, and such persons are given a period of three months from the commencement of the Act during which to register. While the Bill was under consideration by the Standing Committee in another place, an Amendment was moved which, with the object of speeding up the machinery provided by the Bill, required registration to take place before September 30, 1939. The Amendment was withdrawn on an undertaking by the Government to consider at a later stage whether the period allowed for registration could be reduced. This Amendment, which shortens the period allowed for registration from three months to two months, has been set down in fulfilment of that undertaking.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 40, leave out ("three") and insert ("two").—(Lord Templemore.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD TEMPLEMORE

The next Amendment is to put right a mistake pointed out by the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie, to whom I am much obliged. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 17, leave out ("acquires") and insert ("acquire").—(Lord Templemore.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 9 [Provisions as to price schemes]:

LORD TEMPLEMORE

My Lords, the three Amendments in my name to this clause are drafting. I beg to move.

Amendments moved—

Clause 9, page 12, line 33, leave out ("following provisions of this") and insert ("provisions of the next following")

Clause 9, page 13, line 35, leave out ("the preceding subsection") and insert ("subsection (1) of the last preceding section")

Clause 9, page 15, line 24, leave out ("this") and insert ("the last preceding").—(Lord Templemore.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD TEMPLEMORE

My Lords, the last Amendment to this clause is also a drafting Amendment. It is proposed to divide Clause 9, which is a very long clause, into two clauses. The first will contain provisions relating to the contents of price schemes—that is, the provisions which shall or may be made in such schemes—and the second will deal with various controls upon the provisions of price schemes and controls on the operation of such schemes. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 9, that Clause 9 be divided into two clauses, the first to consist of subsections (1), (4), (7) and (8) and the second to consist of subsections (2), (3), (5) and (6).—(Lord Templemore.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 15:

The Rayon Committee.

(2) If, upon a Motion made in each House of Parliament on behalf of His Majesty's Government at any time after the expiration of the period of one year beginning at the commencement of this Act, that House resolves that a committee should be constituted in accordance with the next following subsection, the Board of Trade shall constitute a committee accordingly, notwithstanding that no recommendation has been made to them under the preceding subsection.

3.31 p.m.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "on behalf of His Majesty's Government." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I want to draw your attention to what seems an extraordinary provision in this clause—namely, that: If, upon a Motion made in each House of Parliament on behalf of his Majesty's Government … that House resolves that a committee should be constituted … the Board of Trade shall constitute a committee accordingly … When I put down my Amendment, I did not know that there was anything like a precedent for that proposal, and there is not really a precedent, although I think the noble Lord may produce what he would call two precedents. The first is in the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1933. Section 23 (1) of that Act says: Where a Motion made in either House of Parliament on behalf of His Majesty's Government for the approval of a scheme under the principal Act the draft of which has been laid before that House— The second Act upon which my noble friend may rely is the Sea Fish Industry Act, 1938. Section 17 (2) of that Act says: Where a Motion made in either House of Parliament on behalf of His Majesty's Government for the approval of a marketing scheme, the draft of which has been laid before that Mouse … Both those sections refer to the draft of a scheme, but in this clause of the Bill we are now considering there is no provision for any draft being laid. Therefore, if my noble friend relies on either precedent, his argument must fall to the ground, because they are only partial precedents. I hope that he will accept my Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 26, line 27, leave out ("on behalf of his Majesty's Government").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

LORD STRABOLGI

My Lords, may I on behalf of my noble friends support the noble Viscount in this Amendment? As we read this clause it takes away the rights of members of your Lordships' House. I am only speaking of this House. I have always understood that any Peer could make a Motion on public business, whereas this limits the right of making a Motion to the temporary occupants of the Front Bench opposite. I think the matter is of very great importance from that point of view.

LORD TEMPLEMORE

My Lords, of course I know perfectly well that there are two precedents which the noble Viscount has quoted. I am not, however, going to base my defence of the words in the clause on those precedents but on the merits of the words. As your Lordships will know, under subsection (1) of this clause, the Board of Trade may constitute the Rayon Committee if they are satisfied that a majority of all the interests concerned desire them to do so. Subsection (2) of the clause, on the other hand, provides for the constitution of the committee at any time after the expiration of one year from the commencement of the Act (whether or not a majority of all the interests are in favour of that course) upon a Government Motion in each House of Parliament.

I should perhaps explain to your Lordships that the provision in subsection (2) of the clause was not inserted in the Bill until a late stage of the consideration in another place. Until then the Rayon Committee could not be established at all unless and until the Cotton Industry Advisory Committee were satisfied that a majority of the persons using rayon in each of the branches of the industry desired it. Certain of the rayon interests, for the most part outside the cotton industry, desired the immediate constitution of the committee, but as there was and is a strong feeling amongst the users of rayon in the cotton industry against this, my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade was not prepared to accept their request. He felt, and I hope your Lordships will agree with him, that no useful work could be expected from a committee set up in such circumstances against the wishes of most of the people whose interests the committee were intended to serve.

At the same time he felt that at some future date circumstances might show that establishment of the committee was desirable although all the conditions on which the Cotton Industry Advisory Committee were to be satisfied were not fulfilled. In discussions with the interests that desired the immediate establishment of the committee he offered to introduce a provision which would enable him when he thought the time was ripe—and he was to be the judge of that—to set up the committee provided Parliament approved. All the interests concerned were satisfied with this and said they would be content to leave the decision to him. In these circumstances subsection (2) of Clause 15 was framed so as to provide that the initiative in raising the matter should rest with the Government. That arrangement was accepted by all the interests concerned; if it had not been the Government would have felt considerable difficulty in submitting the proposal to Parliament, The Government would wish that the Rayon Committee should be established as soon as it appears that its establishment would be useful. When the Board of Trade are satisfied on this—and they will keep a close watch on the position in the industry in this respect—the matter will be submitted for decision by Parliament.

The Government feel that the consequences of any disturbance of the compromise that was recently agreed to or of any attempt to raise this matter in the future before the time is ripe, might be most unfortunate since it would revive the controversy which has centred round this subject and postpone the time when the different sections will be able to work amicably together. I should like to acquaint my noble friend that I saw the President of the Board of trade last night and he impressed on me—and I should like to impress on my noble friend and your Lordships—the very great difficulty with which the negotiations were conducted. They have now come to a successful conclusion, enabling this Bill to be brought forward. My right honourable friend feels that if such an Amendment as that proposed by the noble Viscount were accepted it would be a breach of faith on his part as representing His Majesty's Government, and he could not possibly consider it. I hope, therefore, that after this explanation my noble friend may see fit to withdraw his Amendment.

LORD STRABOLGI

May I, by leave of the House, put a question to the noble Lord? Does it not come to the same thing if the Amendment is accepted, because if a private Peer put forward a Motion the Government could always defeat it? That would implement their promise to the industry, but as the clause stands it takes away rights of Parliament. It may be of very great importance in the future, and that is what we are disturbed about.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

My Lords, I am afraid I think the remarks of my noble friend are quite irrelevant. The noble Lord said it would be a breach of faith, but I understand that it would be a breach of faith between some private individuals and some Members of Parliament. I do not think either House ought to be ruled by private interests, and I hope that in future His Majesty's Government will not have recourse to this method. I expect that if I went to a Division I should be defeated, and so, having made my protest, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 38 [Interpretation]:

3.39 p.m.

LORD TEMPLEMORE

My Lords, there are three drafting Amendments to this clause. The first Amendment relates to the definition of "merchant." The definition at present would include producers in the industry who sell their goods to other producers in the industry—for example, a spinner who sells yarn to a manufacturer. Such persons should not be regarded as merchants and the Amendment makes this clear. The second and third Amendments are purely verbal changes. I beg to move the three Amendments together.

Amendments moved— Page 52, line 21, after ("Kingdom") insert ("(otherwise than in the industry)") Page 53, line 37, leave out from ("on") to ("in") in line 38. Page 53, line 38, at end insert ("business by way of any activity which, by virtue of this Act, is to be treated as part of the industry").—(Lord Templemore.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Third Schedule [Part II—Authorisation of price or charge less than normal minimum price or charge]:

LORD TEMPLEMORE

My Lords, there is a drafting Amendment to this Schedule. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 64, line 28, leave out from ("person") to ("is") in line 29.—(Lord Templemore.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Fourth Schedule [Provisions with respect to sectional schemes]:

LORD TEMPLEMORE

My Lords, I have to move another Amendment for which I am indebted to my noble and grammatical friend Viscount Bertie. I am very much obliged to him again, and I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 68, line 8, leave out ("is") and insert ("are").—(Lord Templemore.)

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

My Lords, I assure my noble friend that I require no thanks; I thank him for having done the dirty work for me.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

My Lords, can the attention of the draftsman not be drawn to these points, so that my noble friend Viscount Bettie may be relieved of this task?

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

There is only one safe way, and that is to treat the nouns of multitude in the neuter singular. If you do that, I do not think you can, to use an unparlia- mentary word, come up against any snag.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Seventh Schedule [Provisions for Exchequer assistance to boards administering redundancy schemes]:

LORD TEMPLEMORE

My Lords, both these Amendments are drafting. I beg to move.

Amendments moved— Page 74, line 5, leave out ("purchasing"). Page 74, line 6, after ("board") insert ("to acquire plant").—(Lord Templemore.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended, in pursuance of the Resolution of Monday last:

LORD TEMPLEMORE

My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be read a third time.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Templemore.)

On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

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