HL Deb 17 July 1939 vol 114 cc191-216

Order of the Day for receiving the Report of Amendments read.

3.6 p.m.

THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM)

My Lords, I beg to move that the Report be now received. I shoud like, in doing so, to draw your Lordships' attention to two points which are not covered by the Amendments to the Bill at this stage, but to which I promised my noble friend Lord Bertie to refer at a later stage. My noble friend raised a point on Clause 15—namely, that no provision is made for appeal to the Courts by any person aggrieved by the action of Ministers, under subsection (2) (c), in limiting, suspending or revoking a direction or licence. The object of Clause 15 is to secure that all imported eggs that have been preserved by any process are appropriately marked, before importation, to indicate that they have been so preserved. We cannot rely on inspection at our ports and the only alternative is to place on the country of origin the onus of proving that under their regulations any egg that has been preserved will have been marked before arrival here. If Ministers are satisfied about the marking regulations in a particular country, then a general direction or individual licences will be issued to enable fresh eggs from that source to come in unmarked. No further complications would be likely to arise, but there is always the possibility that the regulations might subsequently be found not to be operating to our satisfaction, and it is to guard against that possibility that it is necessary to provide, in Clause 15 (2) (c), for the suspension or revocation of a direction or licence. I think that my noble friend Lord Bertie will agree that this is not a matter on which it would be appropriate to provide for appeal to the Courts against the action of Ministers.

Another point raised by my noble friend which I promised to look into before the Report stage was the question of the laying of orders made under Clauses 17 and 18 of the Bill. It will be seen from Clause 17 (4) of the Bill that the most important order in these two clauses—that providing for the actual regulation of imported supplies—has to receive the affirmative approval of both Houses of Parliament. The orders under Clause 18 are purely of an administrative nature, to enable the Board of Trade to acquire such statistical information as is necessary to them for the proper exercise of their powers under Clause 17, and in such circumstances it is not necessary for these orders to be liable to annulment by Parliament. But under Clause 19 (2) it will be observed that these orders must be laid before Parliament as soon as possible after they are made. I think that clearly defines the point raised by my noble friend on the Committee stage. I understand that there was anxiety in his mind as to whether an important order affecting the regulation of imported supplies could be revoked or amended. He will see that under subsection (4) provision is made to that effect. With that explanation of the two points which are not covered by Amendments at this stage, I beg to move that this Report be now received.

Moved, That the Report be now received.—(The Earl of Feversham.)

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

My Lords, I am much obliged to my noble friend for his explanation of Clause 15 which, on the whole, is satisfactory; but under Clause 17 he drew your Lordships' attention to subsection (4). Under that subsection an order shall cease to have effect on the expiration of a period of thirty days from the beginning of the day on which the order is made, unless, before the expiration of that period, the order has been approved by a Resolution passed by each House of Parliament, but without prejudice td anything previously done under the order or to the making of a new order. That order must of necessity subsist for thirty days at least before it comes before Parliament, and I do not think that the noble Earl has made a good case on that point.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

My Lords, may I point out to the noble Viscount that under Clause 19, subsection (2), the order which is quoted in subsection (4) of Clause 17, and indeed other orders under Clause 17 as well as orders under Clause 18, must be laid before Parliament "as soon as may be" after they are made.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

But still these orders must exist for thirty days before anything can be done against them.

LORD ADDISON

My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl for a further explanation with regard to the two matters which he said were not covered by Amendments. The first relates to the making of orders affecting fresh eggs imported into this country, the purpose being of course to dispense in these cases with any marking to indicate that they are preserved; they are fresh eggs. But the noble Earl said there would be no marking here. I take it that does not mean that fresh eggs from a foreign country will be unmarked. They will still be marked "Foreign," "Danish" or whatever it is. We should be assured that such a mark will be on them although, in fact, they will be fresh eggs.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

Lords, this is a matter that will be raised under an Amendment standing in the name of my noble friend the Marquess of Aberdeen. Therefore it was not a matter for me to bring before your Lordships' House on this Motion. But the answer is in the affirmative. Unless there is an amendment, which there may be, under the Merchandise Marks Act, 1926, the regulation as to the name of the country of origin and the statement as to whether the eggs are fresh or preserved will operate in the future as in the past.

On Question, Motion agreed to, and Amendments reported accordingly.

Clause 2:

Register of suppliers of stock and of eggs for hatching.

(3) As from the appointed day, no person shall carry on either of the said businesses unless he is entered in the said register as a person carrying on that business, or use any premises in connection with either of the said businesses carried on by him for any such purpose as aforesaid unless the premises are entered in the said register as premises to be so used:

Provided that the Commission may, either absolutely or subject to limitations, exempt any class of persons or premises from the preceding provisions of this subsection.

3.14 p.m.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM moved, in the proviso in subsection (3), after "Provided that the Commission," to insert "after consultation with the Stock Improvement Advisory Committee to be constituted as hereinafter provided." The noble Earl said: My Lords, when this clause was considered in Committee, Lord Addison expressed apprehension with regard to the liberality of the power to grant exemptions which is conferred upon the Commission. The House will agree that it is clearly most important that a fair degree of latitude should be allowed to the Commission in this respect. There is no doubt that their control over the practices of stock suppliers will need to be achieved progressively by stages, so that in all probability in the early days a number of persons may well have to be left outside the scope of control, only to be brought in at a later date.

I have endeavoured to go as far as is considered practicable to meet the objections voiced by the noble Lord, and the Amendment which stands in my name on the Order Paper is the result. The Stock Improvement Advisory Committee will include representatives of all sections of the industry, and it is certain that the Advisory Committee would be anxious to ensure that everyone who ought to be within the scope of these regulations should be so included. It is hoped, therefore, that the Amendment to the effect that the Commission have to consult the Stock Improvement Advisory Committee will go a long way to meet the general objections brought forward by the noble Lord. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 8, after ("Commission") insert ("after consultation with the Stock Improvement Advisory Committee to be constituted as hereinafter provided").—(The Earl of Feversham.)

LORD ADDISON

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for going some way to meet the very important point to which he has referred. I still entertain very serious misgivings about this matter, but I admit that the Amendment which the noble Earl has introduced is a distinct improvement. The improvement would have been of much more value if the noble Earl had agreed to the Amendment I proposed last time in the constitution of the Stock Improvement Advisory Committee as set out in Clause 6. I proposed that there should be representatives of those who purchased the supplies. The noble Earl gave me an assurance, on subsection (3), paragraph (c), that these people would be represented, and I hope when we come to that he will be able to give it in quite explicit terms to-day.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3 [Regulations as to supplies of stock and of eggs for hatching]:

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment, and I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 29, after the second ("the") insert ("said").—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

My Lords, this is also a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 30, leave out ("to be constituted as hereinafter provided").—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4:

Breeders' accreditation scheme.

(6) When the said scheme has been made and submitted to them, the Ministers, after consultation with the Treasury as to the financial provisions thereof, may by order approve the scheme with or without modification, but the order shall be of no effect until it has been confirmed by a Resolution passed by both Houses of Parliament:

Provided that no scheme so amended shall have effect until it has been confirmed by Resolutions of both Houses of Parliament.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

My Lords, the first Amendment to this clause and the next standing in my name are drafting Amendments arising out of the Amendment moved by Lord Addison to Clause 4 (6). The Amendments are introduced for the sake of consistency, and I beg to move.

Amendments moved— Page 8, line 6, leave out ("confirmed") and insert ("approved") Page 8, line 6, leave out ("both Houses") and insert ("each House").(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

3.19 p.m.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM moved to leave out the proviso in subsection (6).

The noble Earl said: My Lords, with your Lordships' approval I suggest that this Amendment and the next, to insert a new proviso in subsection (9), be considered together. Your Lordships will recall that during the Committee stage Lord Addison moved an Amendment the effect of which was to provide that an order approving a breeders' accreditation scheme should be subject to confirmation by Resolution of each House of Parliament. On the suggestion of my noble friend Lord Rankeillour an Amendment was accepted by the Government on the understanding that, if necessary, the matter would be raised again at a later stage. I do not feel it necessary to ask your Lordships' House to reconsider the matter of principle which is involved. In the last two Amendments which have already been passed there is a very small verbal alteration.

But a second amendment, somewhat different from the first, was moved by the noble Lord and was accepted by the House. There was no discussion on it because I think the noble Lord assumed that it was more or less consequential. It is suggested that the scheme that may be amended should only be submitted to both Houses of Parliament if it relates to subsection (3) which is the relevant subsection in respect of the finance of the schemes. It is proposed in this form because it is considered not to be necessary that the Houses of Parliament should be concerned with the approval of an order which is only an amendment of a portion of a scheme of a trifling description. It is to be expected that an accreditation scheme, touching as it will the practice of a large number of poultry farmers, will almost inevitably call for amendment from time to time, but it is considered unnecessary that matters of minor amendment in detail should be submitted to the Houses of Parliament. The main point at issue which my noble friend raised was that the original scheme should be submitted to both Houses, and that subsequently any amendment of the scheme which affected the rates of payment under the grants given from tie public purse should come before both Houses of Parliament. This has been adopted in the Amendment which now stands in my name. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 8, leave out from the beginning to the end of line ro.—(The Earl of Feversham.)

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

My Lords, I think it is a pity that it should be left to the Ministry to decide what are major and what are minor points. I do not know what the noble Lord opposite thinks.

LORD ADDISON

I was going to make some observations when we came to the next Amendment, which really follows this one, to insert the new proviso. As I understand the position, a major scheme would be submitted to both Houses of Parliament, and that was in accordance with our agreement. With regard to the power that the Commission have under the Bill as it is before us to make such amendments to the scheme as they think fit, the point I raised was that the scheme might be so amended as to be quite a different scheme, and that if that were so, the scheme so amended ought to be approved by Parliament. I understand from the modification now proposed by the noble Earl that an amended scheme will be submitted to Parliament only if it changes matters dealt with in subsection (3)—that is to say, rates of contribution, premium and so on. I admit that that substantially meets the point of my criticism.

It does not, however, meet it altogether, because it is quite clear that a scheme might be so amended as to affect producers in very many other respects than the amount of premium they were going to receive or the contributions that they might be called upon to make, and so far as the scheme was so amended it would not, as I understand it, under this Amendment be submitted to Parliament at all. It might still vitally amend the scheme, but the noble Earl's Amendment is a very substantial improvement I think on the Bill as it was, and although I agree that it would be a waste of Parliamentary time to ask the two Houses to deal with trivial amendments, I should like to see an amended scheme which vitally affects matters submitted to Parliament. Still I thank the noble Earl for what he has done.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

The next Amendment goes with the one which I have just explained. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 8, line 27, at end insert: ("Provided that an order approving an amendment of any provision made by the scheme under subsection (3) of this section shall be of no effect until it has been approved by a Resolution passed by each House of Parliament.").—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7:

Poultry products to be graded on sale.

7.—(1) No poultry product produced in the United Kingdom shall be sold or exposed for sale on or after the day that is the appointed day in relation to that product unless—

  1. (a) it has been graded by reference to the prescribed grades; and
  2. (b) it is marked in the prescribed manner with the grade designation appropriate to the prescribed grade to which it belongs or is indicated in some other prescribed manner to be of that grade:

Provided that— (ii) the Commission may, either absolutely or subject to limitations, exempt any class of sale from the provisions of this subsection.

(6) Where it appears to a Food and Drugs authority that a person who has acted as mentioned in subsection (4) of this section would, if charged with having so acted, be in a position to avail himself of the defence specified in that subsection, the authority shall not institute any proceedings against him for having so acted, but shall report the facts to the Commission.

3.27 p.m.

THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "produced in the United Kingdom." The noble Marquess said: My Lords, I would like to explain the next Amendment in my name as well as this one, because they depend upon one another. As the clause stands now, home-produced eggs only will be subject to the regulations with regard to breeding and marking. Surely all eggs, both home-produced and imported, should be treated alike, and if all eggs had to be graded, that would be so. A practice which is adopted at present is to place at the top a certain number of the best eggs and to put at the bottom various other grades and sell them all together, the lower grade eggs being sold at the high price of the better eggs. I consider that foreign produce should be subject to the same conditions as home produce, and with that object in view I move the Amendment on the Paper. I think it must be quite obvious that it would be unfair to allow foreign produce to come in and not subject it to the same rules as those to which our own industry is subject. I understand that this Bill is mainly to help the British poultry industry, but unless you put foreign imports on the same basis and impose upon them the same conditions as are imposed upon the home producer, the latter is not going to benefit one little bit from this Bill. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 11, line 3, leave out from ("product") to ("shall") in line 4.—(The Marquess of Aberdeen and Temair.)

THE EARL OF RADNOR

My Lords, may I support the Amendment of the noble Marquess? I hope the noble Earl in charge of the Bill will consider some Amendment of this nature favourably. The English egg will be carefully graded in weights which run within very narrow limits, and it is quite possible in the egg business to make a lot of money by putting a number of smaller eggs amongst the larger eggs and selling them as of the same grade. To the general public, an egg is an egg, and people do not have regard to the weights which are generally laid down in the standards as to size. It is undoubtedly likely to put the home producer at a disadvantage if the foreign egg can be sold as a similar egg to the English egg while slightly lighter. The sellers of foreign eggs will be able in consequence to sell more cheaply and therefore to get a bigger demand. I hope that this Amendment will be favourably considered, although I feel sure that the noble Earl is full of arguments as to its administrative impossibility.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Radnor, thinks that on behalf of the Department I represent I am going to raise administrative obstacles, but I can assure him that in this instance that is not the case. I should like, however, to point out another consideration in addition to those which the noble Marquess and the noble Earl have mentioned. They have contended that the regulations adopted by the Poultry Commission to effect the grading and marking of poultry products will impose a burden upon the home industry which equally ought to be shared by the import industry. The consideration that I submit is that during the last fifteen or twenty years the opposite has been the case. The home producer who supplies eggs to the market has had his produce ungraded, while for as long a period as twenty years the eggs imported from Denmark, Holland and Belgium commonly commanded a premium over the price fetched by British eggs because they were voluntarily graded. If the proposal of the noble Marquess, Lord Aberdeen, were to take effect it would mean that the Poultry Commission would be made responsible for furthering the interests of the import trade as well as looking after the welfare of the home industry, which is the main purpose of this Bill.

This Bill is intended primarily as a measure of assistance to the home producer to compete on better terms with the import trade, and if it is to be succesful in its aim I do not think there can be any material advantage to the home industry in extending its provisions to imported produce. The noble Earl, Lord Radnor, quoted the case of persons selling eggs from baskets where those at the top are of better quality than those at the bottom. That, I agree, is done in certain instances, but I do not think that that should outweigh what I think is the most important consideration. If it were provided that the Poultry Commission should be responsible for the grading of imported eggs there would be no great advantage to the home producer. We would, in fact, be doing the work of the country of origin in grading imported eggs. It is for that reason that I hope the Amendment will not be pressed, especially as the representative bodies in this matter—the National Farmers' Union and the National Poultry Council—have expressed themselves as opposed to the Amendment of the noble Marquess.

THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR

My Lords, I cannot agree with the last remark of the noble Earl. The biggest poultry association in this country desires this Amendment to protect the home producer. I would like to emphasize the fact that the standard of foreign eggs is not the same as our own. There is a great import industry, particularly from the three countries referred to by the noble Earl, and they have an enormous advantage. They have a great surplus production which they cannot consume at home, and they can put their worst eggs across here, especially when the practice referred to by the noble Earl, Lord Radnor, is resorted to and small eggs are hidden so that the purchaser does not know what he is going to get. If the British producer is to produce a better egg and then have to meet competition from inferior eggs which are not subject to any regulation by the Poultry Commission, then the whole point of having a Poultry Commission to look after the interests of British producers has gone. I really feel that this Amendment is essential to protect the home producer. I have always thought that the Ministry of Agriculture to-day is out to give the British producer a chance against the foreigner, but if you are going to allow the foreign producer to send eggs which are not of the same standard as our own, and are not to be regulated in the same way as the eggs put on the market by the home producer, then quite frankly I cannot agree that you are helping the British producer, which is, presumably, the object of the Bill. I cannot agree to withdraw the Amendment.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

My Lords, I can only speak again by leave of the House, but I feel impelled to do so because the noble Marquess challenged my statement that representative organisations of producers have expressed opposition to the Amendment. It is true that the society which the noble Marquess has in mind—I take it he is referring to the Scientific Poultry Breeders' Association—supports the Amendment, but that association is only the largest single poultry association, with a membership of something like twenty thousand members. The National Poultry Council, which is the representative association of all sections of poultry interests, together with the National Farmers' Union, have categorically stated that they are not in favour of the proposal submitted by the noble Marquess. For twenty years and more the home producer has stood at a great disadvantage because his eggs have not been compulsorily graded, whereas eggs from Holland, Denmark and Belgium have been graded. These graded eggs have fetched a premium in the open market because the consumer knew the quality and type of the eggs he was purchasing. Now we have got, under the provisions of this Bill, what the industry has been requiring for many years. That will be the great advantage that the home producer will have over his competitor who imports eggs into the country from abroad. If the Poultry Commission are expected to grade the importers' produce, the vast assistance that will be rendered to the home industry by the grading provisions of the Bill will be lost, and it is for that reason that I would ask your Lordships not to accept my noble friend's Amendment.

On Question, Amendment negatived.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM moved, in paragraph (ii) of the proviso in subsection (1), after "Commission," to insert "after consultation with the Marketing Advisory Committee to be constituted as hereinafter provided." The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment applies to the Marketing Advisory Committee the same provision as was applied after the criticism of the noble Lord, Lord Addison, to the Stock Improvement Advisory Committee: that is that the Commission, before giving exemption, shall consult with the relevant Advisory Committee. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 11, line 24, after ("Commission") insert ("after consultation with the Marketing Advisory Committee to be constituted as hereinafter provided").—(The Earl of Fever-sham.)

On question, Amendment agreed to.

3.43 p.m.

THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR moved to add to subsection (6) the words "and simultaneously to the wholesaler concerned." The noble Marquess said: My Lords, this is a case where it seems to be desirable that the wholesaler who is getting these eggs should also be warned and given notice, so that if there is anything not quite as it should be he should know that the Commission have had representations made to them and should therefore be protected from doing anything on which the Commission might, as a result of the report, decide against him as a person who is providing contrary to the Statute.

Amendment moved— Page 12, line 40, at end insert ("and simultaneously to the wholesaler concerned").—(The Marquess of Aberdeen and Temair.)

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

My Lords, where a retailer can successfully use the warranty defence which is provided in subsection (4) of Clause 7, the facts of the case are to be reported to the Poultry Commission, because the Commission and not the local authorities are responsible for looking after and supervising the activities of the wholesalers. The object of my noble friend's Amendment is to ensure that the wholesaler concerned gets notification of any complaint against him, and in good time, before the facts of the case are forgotten, so that he may have a proper opportunity of being warned and exonerating himself. I entirely agree with the noble Marquess that this proposal in itself sounds quite reasonable; but the effect of the Amendment would be a great deal wider. The wholesaler would receive notification under the Amendment at the same time as the Commission, and by the time the Commission's inspector came upon the scene the wholesaler concerned would have had the opportunity to cover up what might be the real source of the trouble.

If I may give an example, the wholesaler may be the owner of a packing station and a report made by a local authority may throw doubt upon the effectiveness of his candling and upon his grading. Surely the important thing would be that the inspector should go along at once and see just how that candling and that grading are being done, so that he might ascertain what was at the root of the trouble and how the matter should be put right. To do this effectively he would want to see how the grading and candling of the eggs were normally being carried out, and if the wholesaler concerned were given due warning it would naturally be Impossible for the Commission to ascertain his normal activities in the conduct of business. The only people who need expect severe treatment under this Bill are those who wilfully or recklessly break the law, and it would be to that very restricted class to whom the Amendment would be of greatest advantage, because of the warning that it would give them. It is obviously the work of the Commission to see that grading is done properly; but that will be effected as far as possible by assisting and advising the wholesalers and not by prosecuting them. With that explanation I hope the noble Marquess will not press his Amendment.

THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR

My Lords, if I may explain, my idea was not so much to help the wholesaler to do his business as to help the consumer to get what he is supposed to get. Perhaps the noble Earl could consider whether the consumer or the purchaser could be protected in some way when there is a possibility that he is not getting what he is expected to get, or is getting inferior quality. I am sure he sees the point I have in view. I agree that wholesalers are as a rule quite well able to look after themselves—sometimes too well able—but after the noble Earl's explanation I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 8:

General provisions as to wholesale trade in poultry products.

(2) A person shall be deemed to carry on the business of selling by wholesale poultry products produced in the United Kingdom if he sells any such product by wholesale in the course of any business carried on by him:

Provided …

3.48 p.m.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (2), after "him." to insert or in the case of eggs if he shall purchase in the aggregate in any one week more than 1,000 dozen of eggs from a seller who is a person engaged in poultry farming activities and the eggs were produced by the seller in the course of those activities in accordance with the provisions of subsection (1) of Section seven hereof, notwithstanding that such eggs are sold by him not for re-sale.

The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment is designed to include as wholesalers the very large concerns which buy eggs from producers and sell them in their own shops. At present they only come under the provisions applicable to retailers. Unless these firms are classed as wholesalers they will not be under any obligation to make returns, and a very large volume of eggs of which neither the Commission nor the Board of Trade will have any information will be distributed to consumer. The Commission would consequently be hampered in controlling markets and working a national storage scheme. I look upon this Amendment as a friendly one. I hope my noble friend will agree and will accept it. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 13, line 5, at end insert the said new words.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

My Lords, the Amendment moved by my noble friend can certainly be described as a friendly one, inasmuch as it has a point of very real substance behind it. At the present time negotiations are being conducted with the section of the poultry industry concerned—that is, the multiple retailer and the branch of the co-operative organisation. I would here and now wish to say that if it would be agreeable to the noble Viscount I would ask him at this stage not to press his Amendment, because negotiations are not yet completed, and the point is having the attention it deserves. If a satisfactory conclusion can be arrived at, there will be an opportunity for a proper insertion in another place. I hope that these remarks will satisfy the noble Viscount that the matter is under consideration at the present time.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

My Lords, I am quite satisfied with the reply of the noble Earl, but I should have thought that the proper place to put in an Amendment was on the Third Reading in this House.

LORD ADDISON

May I take it from the noble Earl, with respect to this very important matter, which clearly relates to examination of a different order, that we can be assured that, at all events, there will be an opportunity for this House or the other to consider the point after these negotiations have been concluded, and before the Bill is parted with in another place?

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

I should like to assure the noble Lord, Lord Addison, that such an opportunity and facilities for discussion will be afforded, if not in this House, which I think is improbable owing to the length of the negotiations, then in another place.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 9 [Registration of wholesale traders in poultry products]:

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

My Lords, this Amendment cannot accurately be described as a drafting Amendment, but it is an Amendment similar to the two which I have previously moved.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 16, after ("Commission") insert ("after consultation with the said Marketing Advisory Committee").—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 10 [Regulations as to wholesale trade in poultry products]:

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

These Amendments are drafting.

Amendments moved— Page 14, line 40, after ("the") insert "said"). Page 14, line 40, leave out ("to be constituted as hereinafter provided").—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 13:

Marking of eggs preserved by cold or chemical storage.

13.—(1) Provision may be made, by regulations applicable to any class of eggs, for requiring either— (a) that eggs of that class, which are to be placed in cold storage or in chemical storage in premises used for such storage of eggs by way of trade or for purposes of gain, shall not be so placed until they have been marked in the prescribed manner; or

3.54 p.m.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM moved, in paragraph (a) of subsection (1), to leave out "cold storage or in chemical storage" and insert "storage for preservation." The noble Earl said: My Lords, if it will be convenient to the House, I suggest that this Amendment should be considered together with the other Amendments to this clause standing in my name. Clause 13 makes special provision to ensure the marking of eggs that have been preserved by one or other of the various methods of storage. It would not be sufficient in the case of stored eggs merely to provide that the eggs must bear a prescribed mark when sold. Your Lordships will readily appreciate that such a provision could not be enforced, because it is quite impossible to tell by inspecting an egg whether it is fresh or has been subjected to some form of storage. Therefore this clause requires all commercial egg storage premises to be registered, and regulations made by the Poultry Commission under the clause will place on the occupiers of the storage premises the obligation to mark all stored eggs in the prescribed manner.

Your Lordships will see that the clause refers to "cold or chemical storage." It is felt that these specific references to "cold or chemical storage," and the definition of these terms, might give rise to some difficulty in the future. New methods of storage may come into use which would not conveniently fit into the definitions that have been given of cold or chemical storage. It is therefore proposed that in place of those words should be inserted "storage for preservation" which would cover all eventualities for the future. I beg to move.

Amendments moved— Page 17, line 17, leave out ("cold storage or in chemical storage") and insert ("storage for preservation") Page 17, line 39, leave out ("cold storage or chemical storage") and insert ("storage for preservation") Page 18, line 4, leave out ("cold storage or in chemical storage") and insert ("storage for preservation") Page 18, line 14, leave out ("cold storage or in chemical storage") and insert ("storage for preservation").—(The Earl of Feversham.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD MAUGHAM)

With your Lordships' permission I will put all the Amendments to this clause, standing in the name of the noble Earl, together.

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 15:

Control of importation to secure marking of preserved eggs.

15.—(1) It shall not be lawful, on or after the appointed day, to import into the United Kingdom any eggs unless either— (c) the eggs bear a mark prescribed by rules made by the Ministers under this section.

3.57 p.m.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (1), to leave out paragraph (c) and insert: (c) the eggs bear a mark indicating the country of origin, and shall not be described as new laid, or (d) the eggs bear another mark prescribed by rules made by the Ministers under this section.

The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment seeks to ensure that all eggs coming into the United Kingdom shall be traceable to the country of origin, and so enable customers to know what eggs they are purchasing. I know there is a Bill before Parliament to amend the Merchandise Marks Act in a way which will probably give effect to this object, but that Bill is not yet law, and it goes to prove that the necessity for such an Amendment as this has already been recognised by the Government. The provision that the term "new laid" shall not be used simply seeks to tell the truth, by stopping the present misleading descriptions which state that eggs produced in distant countries are new laid.

Amendment moved— Page 19, line 12, leave out paragraph (c) and insert the said new paragraphs (c) and (d).—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

My Lords, the effect of this Amendment would be one quite contrary to that to which the noble Viscount has just made reference, and it would be one which he may not yet have considered. I would submit that if this Amendment were carried, its effect would apparently be that if foreign preserved eggs were marked with the country of origin and were not described as new laid they could be imported into the United Kingdom without any mark of preservation having been put upon them. That is one of the very things which this Bill is endeavouring to prevent. That is merely a mistake in the wording of the Amendment, and it would have that very great drawback if it were carried in its present form. Perhaps I may turn to the larger issue. My noble friend is quite correct in saying that there are consultations at present ensuing with regard to the amendment of the Merchandise Marks Act, 1926, and it is considered that as the general issue is being raised, not only with respect to poultry products but in respect to imports generally, it would be quite inopportune to make any Amendment to this Bill before there was general legislation.

As your Lordships will be aware, my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade recently announced in another place that, together with the Minister of Agriculture, he had been considering representations that the existing option to mark goods which require an indication of origin under the Merchandise Marks Act with the word "Foreign" or "Empire," instead of with the definite indication of country of origin, should be withdrawn. They had reached the conclusion that there were sufficient grounds in principle for removing this option, and the practical issues are being studied at the present time. In view of that explanation, I think that it is hardly appropriate to consider further the particular relationship that that legislation would have to eggs. The first paragraph of the noble Viscount's Amendment refers to new laid eggs, which is a matter which clearly relates to freshness and not to origin. It must be admitted, unfortunately, that there are still a good many home producers who supply eggs, if I may so put it, in a less "new laid" condition than some of those that are imported from such countries as Eire, Denmark and Holland. Bearing in mind, therefore, that every individual imported egg already has to be stamped with a mark of indication of origin, it would be unreasonable to prohibit the use of the description "new laid" in connection with any eggs but those which are home produced. For those reasons I hope the Amendment will not be pressed.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

My Lords, I was not quite sure whether my noble friend agreed with the intention of my Amendment. He referred to the question of the amending of the Merchandise Marks Act, but when is that legislation likely to become law? It cannot become law this Session, considering that there is such a congestion of business.

LORD ADDISON

My Lords, with regard to the option to which the noble Lord referred, I understand that the position is that the negotiations now being conducted relate to an alteration in the method of marking goods, not to any proposal that they should not be marked. I take it that the position is that they are either marked "Empire" or "Foreign," or they are marked according to the country of origin. I hope the noble Earl will be able to assure us that there is no proposal that they should not be marked. They should be marked one way or the other, but it is relatively immaterial which.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

Certainly in respect of eggs there will be a mark, either specifying that the egg is foreign or Empire, or alternatively giving the country of origin. In the case of Denmark they always stamp on the eggs the word "Denmark" as the country of origin. With regard to the point raised by my noble friend Lord Bertie, I have already informed him that in principle my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade has agreed that the option should be withdrawn, but I am not in a position to state when such legislation will be, passed, or whether it will be on the Statute Book by the end of this Session.

LORD STRABOLGI

My Lords, we on this side hope that these arrangements for marking eggs will be made before the next General Election.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 29 [Power to Enter Premises]:

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM moved a manuscript Amendment, in subsection (2), page 33, line 13, to leave out "cold storage or chemical storage" and to insert "storage for preservation". The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential to the Amendments moved in my name to Clause 13.

Amendment moved— Page 33, line 13, leave out ("cold storage or chemical storage") and insert ("storage for preservation").—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 36:

Loans and grants for improvement of packing facilities.

(4) All sums to be paid by the Ministers under this section, whether by way of loan or by way of grant, shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament, and the aggregate of all the said sums shall not exceed fifty thousand pounds.

4.6 p.m.

THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR moved, at the end of subsection (4), to insert "of which not more than five thousand pounds shall be expended by way of grant." The noble Marquess said: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is to ensure that a large proportion of this £50,000 fund shall not be spent merely on demonstrations, for which grants only are to be provided. I do not think anybody will say that £50,000 is an excessive amount for the purposes of loans under this Bill. The great advantage of a loan, as far as the Treasury is concerned, is that it is repaid, and that interest is paid on it, whereas in the case of grants, the principal is not paid back, and no interest is payable. Therefore, in order to allow as much money as possible to be available for loans, I think it would be wise to put a limit to the amount to be spent on grants. As I understand, these demonstrations are only to last for a very short time at the beginning of the operation of the Bill.

Amendment moved— Page 36, line 40, at end insert ("of which not more than five thousand pounds shall be expended by way of grant").—(The Marquess of Aberdeen and Temair.)

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

My Lords, I think the noble Marquess will agree with me that it is not possible at this stage to forecast exactly the extent to which producers will wish to take advantage of the facilities for loans which are provided under this Bill. The noble Marquess has drawn attention to the fact that the total provision is limited to £50,000. We cannot conclude that producers will necessarily come forward as readily as some may anticipate for loans, because loans may equally be provided by some alternative accommodation, and the result of segregating the total fund provided into two distinct funds might very well be unfortunate. The money in one fund might not be exhausted while in the other fund it might be used at an early date, and if the Amendment were carried there would be no opportunity of augmenting the one fund which had been exhausted from the balance of the other. I suggest therefore that the arrangements as planned in the Bill are in the best interests of the producer. I should like to assure the noble Marquess and those whom he represents in this poultry discussion that it is not contemplated that any substantial sum shall be devoted to demonstrational purposes. The bulk of the fund is intended to go on loan purposes, for the assistance of the producers in packing stations. I hope the noble Marquess will be satisfied with that explanation.

LORD ADDISON

My Lords, before we part from this I should like to express a note of vehement opposition to the proposal of the noble Marquess. As I said last time, in our opinion the proposals of the Bill in regard to packing stations for the benefit of producers are miserably inadequate, and I do not depart from anything I have said. Out of the miserable £50,000 which the Government are proposing to provide to assist producers to set up packing stations, the noble Marquess is going to insist that at least £45,000 should be paid back. That is the effect of the Amendment. I thought he was trying to help the producers, but under his Amendment all the producers will get by way of grant, as a maximum, will be £5,000. I sincerely hope your Lordships at least will not cut down the miserable contribution to that extent.

THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR

My Lords, may I say that the noble Lord opposite has quite misrepresented my intentions? My Amendment is intended to be a friendly Amendment, as indeed all my Amendments have been. I am not against the Poultry Industry Bill as it stands. I am trying to improve it. As regards the noble Earl's statement, I am quite satisfied that it is not intended to spend a great deal of money on demonstrations, although I gather that possibly loans are going to be made for other purposes than packing facilities. If that is so I am delighted to hear it. The marginal note says, "Loans and grants for improvement of packing facilities." I presume that that summarises the whole clause. I am delighted to hear that advances will possibly be made for other purposes of the industry than merely packing facilities. After the noble Earl's explanation I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

My Lords, in the interests of clarity and for future reference I should like to take this opportunity of informing the noble Lord opposite that subsection (1) of Clause 36 is in respect of loans for the establishment of producers' packing stations. Subsection (2) of Clause 36 is for the purposes of grants for the holding of demonstrations of methods of packing dead poultry, etc. Therefore a grant cannot be made to packing stations under subsection (1).

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 42:

Interpretation.

42. In this Act, except where it is otherwise provided or the context otherwise requires, the following expressions have the meanings hereby assigned to them respectively, that is to say—

"chemical storage" means storage for the purpose of preserving eggs by any process involving the use of gas, vapour, or gaseous mixture, or storage for the purpose of preserving eggs by any other process, being a process which does not alter the composition of the shells, but excluding cold storage;

"cold storage" means storage for the purpose of preserving eggs in a natural atmosphere cooled by artificial means to a temperature not exceeding forty degrees fahrenheit;

"hatchery" means any premises on which fowls eggs are incubated for the purpose of carrying on the business of supplying baby chicks (that is to say, chicks which have never been fed) or started chicks (that is to say, chicks which have been fed);

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM moved to leave out the definitions of "chemical storage" and "cold storage" and insert: 'storage for preservation means, in relation to eggs, storage thereof for the purpose of preserving them by any process which does not alter the composition of the shells thereof.

The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is a consequential Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 39, line 4, leave out from the beginning to the end of line 14, and insert the said new words.—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

4.15 p.m.

THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR moved to omit the definition of "hatchery" and substitute the following: 'hatchery' means the premises of any person who for the purpose of his business buys all or part of, the eggs through which the chicks sold are produced.

The noble Marquess said: My Lords, I wonder how many of your Lordships understand the definition of "hatchery" on page 39 of the Bill. It reads: 'Hatchery' means any premises on which fowls' eggs are incubated for the purpose of carrying on the business of supplying baby chicks (that is to say, chicks which have never been fed) or started chicks (that is to say, chicks which have been fed). I can quite understand that those who are not versed in poultry matters would not understand that definition, but I fancy those who do know something about poultry would also be somewhat mystified. My idea in putting down this Amendment is to have something a little more definite in the Bill as to what a hatchery really is. If noble Lords will look at Clause 2, subsection 8, they will see that there is a big difference in the fees which are to be paid to the Commission. In the case of a hatchery the fee is £5 5s., and in the other cases it is 5s. Therefore it is very important that the definition of a hatchery should be extremely clear, otherwise some people may be called upon to pay £5 5s. when really 5s. is all they ought to be called upon to pay.

I agree that it is extremely difficult to define what a chick is. But as the definition stands in the Bill quite an old hen may be described as a chick. It says "chicks which have been fed," but it does not at all limit the time. There is no definition, as far as I know, of what a chick is, and, as I say, under the definition at present in the Bill you might have quite an old hen classed as a chick. I do not know whether the noble Earl can suggest a better definition than I have put down, but if he can I assure him all those interested in this matter would be grateful to him because, quite frankly, the definition in the Bill at present is not a satisfactory one. I agree it is a difficult matter, but it is very important that the word "hatchery" should have a meaning that the ordinary individual can understand. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 39, line 28, leave out lines 28 to 33, and insert the said new words.—(The Marquess of Aberdeen and Temair.)

THE EARL OF RADNOR

My Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess one question on his Amendment, and that is as to the man who buys "part" of his eggs. Which "part" of his eggs does he buy—the yolk or the white?

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

My Lords, I am afraid the Amendment of the noble Marquess would not fulfil the object he has in mind. To exclude the class of hatchery to which he refers it would be necessary to proceed otherwise than by amending the definition of the term "hatchery." If he will turn to Clause 2 (1) he will see these words: It shall be the duty of the Commission to keep a register (in this Act referred to as the 'Stock Suppliers' Register') of persons carrying on the business of supplying fowls not intended for immediate slaughter or the business of supplying fowls' eggs for hatching.… Therefore, there is no mention of the word "hatchery" in the governing subsection of Clause 2. The Bill confers a general power of exemption on the Poultry Commission, and it is quite likely, as was suggested by the Poultry Technical Committee, that the Commission will, in fact, decide to exempt hatcheries which produce their own eggs from the necessity of registering, at least in the early stages of the scheme. I do not think there is any justification for a permanent and irrevocable exemption since it cannot be assumed that a breeder who hatches his own eggs is, for that reason and that reason only, necessarily above all suspicion. I regret I am unable to accept my noble friend's Amendment.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

My Lords, I should like to ask my noble friend whether he is satisfied with the present definition of a hatchery. It is so very complicated that the ordinary man would not understand it. Therefore, I should be glad if my noble friend could possibly on the next stage, or in another place, re-define it, because I think that will be a very great help to the industry.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

My Lords, in answer to my noble friend Lord Bertie, I am assured that the definition at present given to the term "hatchery" in Clause 42, does convey in the plainest possible terms, the distinction to which certain references have been made in your Lordships' House, but I will undertake to review this definition again, and I hope that in subsequent debates in another place there will be an occasion for my right honourable friend to make some statement supporting the statutory definition as included in the Bill.

THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR

My Lords, I am much obliged for the noble Earl's last statement. It quite meets my point, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.