HL Deb 17 May 1938 vol 109 cc71-82

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[LORD STANMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2:

White Fish Industry Joint Council.

(3) For the purposes of this Part of this Act a person shall be deemed to carry on the business of selling white fish by wholesale if, in the course of any business carried on by him, he sells any white fish to a person who buys the fish for the purpose of selling them again, and shall be deemed to carry on the business of a fishmonger if, in the course of any business carried on by him, he sells white fish by retail:

Provided that— (a) a sale of white fish by auction effected at a port by or on behalf of the catcher of the fish shall be deemed not to be a sale by wholesale;

THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM) moved to insert in subsection (3), after proviso (a): (b) a person shall not be taken to carry on the business of selling white fish by wholesale, or the business of a fishmonger, by reason only that he sells white fish preserved in any airtight container. The noble Earl said: In the debate in another place the question was raised as to whether the grocer who sells a tin of sardines would come within the definition of fishmonger now included in the Bill and an assurance was given that this was not the intention and that the fact would be made clear. The present Amendment is designed to meet this point, and I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 7, at end insert the said new paragraph,—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3:

Registration of persons engaged in the white fish industry.

(4) A person shall on making application to be registered in the Commission's register, and also on demand made by the Commission at any time while his name appears in that register, furnish to the Commission such information as it may require for the purpose of performing its duties under this section.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM moved to add to subsection (4): and any person registered in the Commission's register as carrying on a designated business shall, whenever requested in writing by the Commission so to do, make to the Commission a written declaration stating whether or not he is carrying on that business as a nominee of another person, and, if so, specifying the name of that other person.

The noble Earl said: When this clause was under discussion in another place an Amendment was moved requiring the Commission to discover the person who, in fact, directs the policy of a concern. This was putting on the Commission an onus of inquiry which it would be extremely difficult to discharge and also placing an onus irrelevant to the purposes of this Bill. The Commission already has full power under Clauses 24 and 28 to obtain any information necessary, but the Government gave an undertaking to move an Amendment which would meet this point to some extent, and that is the reason for the Amendment I now beg to propose.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 3, at end insert the said new words.—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4:

Power of Commission to regulate marketing of white fish.

4.—(1) The Commission may make regulations for securing that, subject to any exemption for which provision may be made by the regulations, white fish of any description or quality defined by the regulations shall not be sold, or consigned, offered or exposed for sale, unless such designation, mark or other means for indicating that the fish are of the said description or quality as may be prescribed by the regulations is used, in relation to the fish, in such manner as may be so prescribed:

Provided that… (4) The Commission may, in relation to premises used for fish markets, make regulations— (b) for fixing or limiting the charges that may be made by any person in respect of sales of white fish which, at any such premisses as aforesaid, are effected by him on behalf of another person, or in respect of goods supplied, or services rendered, by him in connection with the consignment of white fish for sale at any such premises.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM moved, in subsection (1), after "regulations," to insert "(a),"in order to add after "prescribe," and immediately preceding the proviso, the following new paragraph: (b) for prohibiting, except in relation to white fish of such description or quality as may be so defined, the use, in any manner or circumstances specified in the regulations, of such designation, mark or other means as may be so prescribed for indicating that such fish are of that description or quality. The noble Earl said: With your Lordships' permission I will take this and the next Amendment together. Clause 4 (1) enables the Commission to make regulations designed to protect fish of good quality from the competition of inferior fish sold under a false description. On consideration, it is felt that the subsection as it now stands does not enable this to be done in the most convenient manner. The Amendment proposed is designed to provide a similar procedure on the lines of the Agricultural Produce (Grading and Marking) Acts which would enable the Commission to prescribe a quality definition for high grade fish together with a designation or mark indicative of that quality, and forbid the use of the designation or mark for any fish which did not conform to the quality definition. I beg to move.

Amendments moved— Page 5, line 17, after "regulations" insert ("(a)") Page 5, line 26, at end insert the said new paragraph.—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM moved, in subsection (4), after paragraph (b), to insert: (c) for requiring that where, in the case of any white fish consigned for sale on commission, the salesman makes a charge by way of commission or otherwise, he shall enter in a book kept by him for the purpose the names of the owner or consignor of the fish and of every purchaser, and the price paid or agreed to be paid by each purchaser, and shall, as soon as practicable after the sale, send by post or deliver to the owner or consignor an account containing the following particulars:

  1. (i) the actual price paid or agreed to be paid for the fish and, where there is any variation in price, the number, weight or quantity sold, or agreed to be sold, at each price,
  2. (ii) the commission or other charge made by the salesman for selling the fish, together with details of any charges made for services in connection with the sale,
  3. (iii) the amounts, if any, paid or payable by the salesman on behalf of the owner or consignor in connection with the sale, with details thereof, and
  4. (iv) if any of the fish are bought by the salesman or by any person on his behalf, a statement that those fish have been so bought."

The noble Earl said: An Amendment designed to incorporate in this Bill the substance of the Horticultural Produce (Sales on Commission) Act, 1926, was moved in another place and was accepted in principle by the Government subject to consideration as to whether it would be best to follow the precedent of the Act of 1926 and make the terms of the Amendment a direct statutory obligation in this Bill or to give the White Fish Commission power to make regulations to achieve the same object. The Government have come to the conclusion that it would be better to leave the question to be dealt with by Commission's regulations, and the Amendment now proposed has been framed accordingly. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 29, at end insert the said new paragraph (c).—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

The next Amendment is a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 30, at the beginning insert ("(5)").—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

The next Amendment is consequential to the Amendment to Clause 4, page 6, line 29.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 32, after ("wholesale") insert ("or the business of a person who effects sales of white fish consigned to him for sale on commission").—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

The next two Amendments are consequential.

Amendments moved— Page 6, line 38, after ("(b)") insert ("or paragraph (c), as the case may be") Page 6, line 38, leave out ("this") and insert ("the last preceding").—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5 agreed to.

Clause 6 [Registration under marketing schemes]:

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

There is a drafting Amendment on this clause.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 17, leave out ("such a") and insert ("the").—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 7:

Constitution of boards to administer marketing schemes.

7.—(1) A marketing scheme may make provision for the administration of the scheme by a board, which shall be constituted as follows, that is to say:

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "may make provision" and insert "shall be of no effect unless provision is thereby made." The noble Earl said: This Amendment makes it clear that a marketing scheme must make provision for the administration of the scheme by a board. At present the making of such provision is permissive; the Amendment makes it mandatory, as it is in the case of marketing schemes under the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1931. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 9, line 1, leave out ("may make provision") and insert ("shall be of no effect unless provision is made thereby").—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved to insert at the end of the clause: If any person being a member of the board acquires any financial or commercial interest in any undertaking as is likely to affect him in the discharge of his functions as a member of the board he shall within four weeks after so doing give notice thereof in writing to the Ministers specifying the interest so acquired, and the Ministers after taking the matter into consideration may, if they think fit, declare that the member of the board has vacated his office. The noble Viscount said: I have adapted this Amendment from the Road Traffic Acts. Surely members of a board should inform Ministers that they have acquired an interest which is likely to affect them in their duty, instead of waiting until they are asked to do so by the Ministers? Further, in cases where members of a board have acquired interests which may affect their judgment, there is no power given to Ministers to declare their offices vacant. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 9, line 35, at end insert the said words.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

I think the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie, is somewhat under a misapprehension as to the purpose this Amendment would fulfil. Subsection (2) of Clause 7 states, that it is the duty of Ministers to satisfy themselves with respect to any person whom they propose to appoint to be a member of a marketing board, that that person will have, or has, as the case may be, no financial or commercial interest that is likely to affect him in the discharge of his functions on the board. Under the scheme of marketing included in this Bill, there is a variation from the previous schemes of marketing boards set up by the Agricultural and Marketing Acts of 1931 and 1933, and that is, that the Minister may appoint independent members to be not less than three and not more than one-third of the total number on the board, but the remainder are elected members and, therefore, are dependent upon their constituents and all those interests that are participating in the marketing scheme. It would be improper for the Minister to apply the same restrictions upon those elected members as he will do upon tie independent members. Therefore this provision is confined to the members of the marketing board appointed by the Minister.

I should add that the Amendment appears to leave a wide discretion to members of a board in the matter of notifying Ministers; in fact it is so wide indeed that probably in many cases this provision would fail to be effective. Moreover, it would clearly be impossible, as I have said, to apply this provision to elected members of a board who, of course, are answerable only to their own constituents. With regard to the other point raised by the noble Viscount, I am very glad that he has tabulated this Amendment owing to the fact that it has revealed a defect in the subsection which, as the noble Viscount said, makes no provision for Ministerial action in the case of an unsuitable member. Therefore it is proposed to move an Amendment on Report stage to meet this point and to bring the subsection into line with paragraph 3 of the First Schedule to the Bill. I hope that this announcement of the proposed Amendment will satisfy the noble Viscount on that point.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

I am not quite clear whether the noble Earl resists this Amendment or not.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

Yes. The noble Viscount, Lord Bertie, raised two points. One was that his Amendment should be in respect of all members of the board. I have endeavoured to explain to your Lordships that this is impossible because a large proportion of the members of the marketing board under this Bill are elected members and, therefore, cannot be controlled by the Minister. The second point is with regard to a defect in the clause which makes no provision for Ministerial action in the case of an unsuitable member who is a member appointed by the Minister, and it is on that point that it is proposed to move an Amendment at a later stage.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

I am very much obliged to my noble friend. I myself did not dare to move an Amendment to get rid of unsuitable members, because on former occasions when I have done so I have always been told that the gentlemen in question are very much superior to the Road Traffic Commissioners.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8 agreed to.

Clause 9:

Licensing provisions of producers' marketing schemes.

(2) No provisions contained in a producers' marketing scheme by virtue of the preceding subsection shall be of any effect unless provision is also made by such a scheme— (d) enabling any person aggrieved by any refusal of the board to grant, renew or transfer a licence under the scheme, by any decision of the board to revoke or suspend the operation of such a licence, or by any direction given by the board in exercise of powers conferred on it by virtue of paragraph (c) of the preceding subsection, to appeal to the Commission, and determining the powers exercisable by the Commission, on any such appeal; and

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM moved, in paragraph (d) of subsection (2), to leave out "or by any direction given by the board in exercise of powers conferred on it by virtue of paragraph (c) of the preceding subsection." The noble Earl said: This gives the necessary authority to the Producers' Marketing Board to regulate the landing of white fish in Great Britain by home producers by means of a system of licensing. Under certain conditions a board may refuse to grant, renew or transfer a licence, or they may revoke or suspend the operation of a licence. Paragraph 2 (d) of the clause on page 13 gives a right of appeal to the Commission to any person aggrieved by a decision of the board in respect of a licence. The paragraph also gives a right of appeal to the Commission to any person who is aggrieved by any direction given by the I board in exercise of the powers conferred on it by paragraph (c) of subsection (1). Such directions would relate to the equipment of or the operations conducted on board any licensed boat, and would, therefore, affect the day to day working of the marketing scheme. It has been felt on consideration that such a right of appeal against the directions of the board may be exercised in such a way as severely to hamper that board in the proper administration of its scheme and, therefore, on practical grounds is undesirable. The Amendment, therefore, proposes to remove this right of appeal. Complaints against the working of a scheme can be referred if necessary to a Committee of Investigation which is provided under Clause 15, subsection (3). I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 13, line 27, leave out from ("licence") to the first ("to") in line 30.—(The Earl of Feversham.s)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 10:

Marketing provisions of distributors' marketing schemes.

10. A marketing scheme for regulating the marketing of white fish by persons carrying on any designated business, not being either the business of a home producer of white fish or the business of curing, salting, smoking, drying or canning white fish, may provide for determining, subject to any regulations of the Commission,—

(2) the manner in which white fish may be stored, or adapted, offered or exposed for sale, by any such person.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM moved to add to paragraph (2) "and the scheme may provide for determining any of the matters aforesaid either generally or in relation to particular areas or particular descriptions of white fish." The noble Earl said: This Amendment is to enable distributors' marketing schemes to be applied to particular areas or particular descriptions of white fish. I understand that representations have been made to the effect that conditions and practices of distributors vary as between one district and another, and provision for local variations appears to be desirable in the distributors' marketing schemes, as, indeed, it has been found to be desirable for producers' marketing schemes covered by Clause 8, subsection (1) of the Bill. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 22, at end insert the said words.—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 11 and 12 agreed to.

Clause 13:

Provisions as to the submission, confirmation, amendment and revocation of marketing schemes.

(5) Any power conferred by this Part of this Act to prepare, submit or confirm a marketing scheme shall be construed as including a power, exercisable in the like manner and subject to the like conditions, to prepare, submit or confirm a scheme amending or revoking a marketing scheme which is already in operation; and any reference in this Act to a marketing scheme shall be construed as including a reference to such an amending or revoking scheme:

Provided that… (10) In this section— (a) the expression "appropriate registered persons" means— (ii) in relation to a scheme amending or revoking a marketing scheme, persons who, at the beginning of the relevant day, are persons registered under the scheme which it is proposed to amend or revoke;

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM moved to omit from subsection (5) "and any reference in this Act to a marketing scheme shall be construed as including a reference to such an amending or revoking scheme." The noble Earl said: This Amendment should be read with the new clause which it is proposed to insert after Clause 34. It is scarcely more than a technical drafting Amendment and unless your Lordships desire it I will move the Amendment without a detailed explanation.

Amendment moved— Page 18, line 17, leave out from ("operation") to the end of line 20.—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM moved, at the end of paragraph (a) in subsection (10), to insert: or registered in the Commission's register as carrying on the class of business to which the scheme relates, not being persons exempted from registration by the provisions of the revoking scheme or, as the case maybe, by the provisions of the original scheme as proposed to be amended. The noble Earl said: This Amendment is intended to repair an omission from the Bill. It is possible that an amending or revoking scheme would cover other persons in addition to those already registered under the scheme proposed to be amended or revoked, and it is desirable, therefore, that the definition of "appropriate registered persons" should be wide enough to include all such persons as are affected. For instance, from the original scheme inshore fishermen might be exempt, but under the amended scheme it might be necessary to include them. Therefore there should be power for this class of person to vote on that amending scheme. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 20, line 5, at end insert the said words.—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

The next Amendment is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 20, line 10, at the beginning insert ("the expression").—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 14 to 18 agreed to.

Clause 19 [Registration under co-operative schemes]:

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

There is a drafting Amendment to this clause. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 26, line 17, leave out ("such a") and insert ("the").—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 20:

Provisions with respect to submission, confirmation, amendment and revocation of co-operative schemes.

(4) Any power conferred by this Part of this Act to make, submit, or confirm a cooperative scheme shall include a power, exercisable in the like manner and subject to the like conditions, to make, submit or confirm a scheme amending or revoking a co-operative scheme, and any reference in this Act to a co-operative scheme shall be construed as including a reference to such an amending or revoking scheme as aforesaid.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM moved, in subsection (4), to leave out all words after "scheme" where that word occurs for the third time. The noble Earl said: This is little more than a drafting Amendment. It is designed to effect the same improvement in relation to co-operative schemes as the Amendment of Clause 13 in relation to marketing schemes. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 28, line 20, leave out from the second ("scheme") to the end of line 23.—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 20, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 21 to 34 agreed to.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM moved, after Clause 34, to insert the following new clause:

Construction of amending schemes with original schemes for certain purposes.

"A. Where a marketing scheme or cooperative scheme is amended by any subsequent scheme or schemes, then, for the purposes of so much of this Part of this Act as determines the provisions which must or may be contained in any marketing scheme or cooperative scheme, as the case may be, the original scheme and the amending scheme or schemes shall be treated as a single scheme."

The noble Earl said: This new clause is consequential on the Amendment of Clause 13, page 18, line 17. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 37, line 20, after Clause 34 insert the said new clause.—(The Earl of Feversham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clauses 35 and 36 agreed to.

EARL STANHOPE

My Lords the Royal Commission is now due and so I suggest that the House should be resumed and that we should return to the Committee stage of this Bill afterwards.

House adjourned during pleasure.

House resumed.