HL Deb 21 May 1936 vol 100 cc1157-61

Order of the Day for the Second Beading read.

LORD JESSEL

My Lords, the two previous movers of Bills have been extremely fortunate in getting a Second Reading, and I hope that, as there is luck in odd numbers, I may be equally successful in persuading your Lordships to pass this very small Bill. I should like for a very few moments to detain your Lordships to tell you what it is all about. In the first place, this Bill has passed through another place without any controversy at all. It has been designed to meet certain difficulties which have been experienced in the last year or two by some sections of the road transport industry. The first clause deals with the difficulty experienced by the showman, a class of man with whose activities I think many of your Lordships are acquainted. These are the attendants at travelling shows, who look after the fat lady and the coconut shies and attend to the roundabouts. They are a very useful portion of these travelling shows which give amusement to so many grown-ups and children alike.

This first clause deals only with the question of the steersman. As I said, he is as a rule employed in looking after the matters to which I have referred, but when the fair moves from one ground to another he steers the machine under the direction of the actual driver, who is a skilled engineer, and he is a steersman much in the same way as the helmsman of a ship. Under the Road Traffic Act, 1930, the steersman is regarded as a driver, and is required to obtain an ordinary licence. So long as that licence is a mere matter of registration and the payment of a 5s. fee the industry have no objection. In 1934 the Road Traffic Act introduced a general requirement that a new driver must pass a driving test. The men with whom we are now dealing never have any occasion to drive in the ordinary sense of the word. Their normal occupation is of a different character, and I submit that it is unreasonable that, before we allow them to turn a wheel under the orders of a qualified driver, we should put them to the expense of learning to drive a lorry or car.

There could be no question of their trying to drive the heavy steam engine itself. That is a trained job. I might remind your Lordships that these machines are very expensive. They cost from £2,000 to £3,000 each, and therefore it is not likely that the owner is going to trust the steering of it to a man who is not used to it. I am sorry that Lord Cecil is not here, because he takes such an interest in these matters as Chairman of the Pedestrians' Association, but I would like to remind him and your Lordships that the maximum speed at which these heavy engines are allowed to proceed is five miles per hour. Therefore, even if the man did go wrong, or was taken ill, the driver is standing by his side the whole time, and by means of the heavy brakes can bring the vehicle to a standstill within a matter of a yard or two.

Clause 2 deals with the special driving test which is required to be taken by the man who is going to drive what is called a heavy goods vehicle. Your Lordships will recall that the Act of 1934 required these men, who are practically all whole-time drivers, to hold what the Statute calls the "heavy goods vehicles driver's licence," generally known as the "vocational" licence; and the Chairmen of Traffic Commissioners, who are responsible for these licences, properly exercise the power which Parliament has given them of requiring a man to undergo an appropriate test before he is licensed to drive these large machines up and down the country. But what is wanted is to avoid the curious position that a man cannot obtain a licence until he has passed the test, and he cannot legally drive, for purposes of test or otherwise, one of these types of vehicles until he has got his licence.

The way that is got over at the present moment is for the man to drive a smaller vehicle for his test. That practice has been perforce accepted by the authorities, but it is considered that this is not a satisfactory situation, and it is proposed in this clause to allow a provisional licence, with a three months currency, to be issued for the purpose of enabling the man who wants to drive a heavy goods vehicle to learn to manage such a vehicle efficiently and to pass the proper test. The clause empowers the Minister to lay down certain conditions under which the holder of a provisional licence may drive; that is to say, he must while he is learning be accompanied by a trained driver. This clause, it is hoped, will meet a real difficulty which has been experienced in the last two years by an important part of the road transport industry, and will enable arrangements to be made which will be far more satisfactory than those which exist at present.

I have dealt with Clauses 1 and 2 and I would like to conclude by explaining to your Lordships the provisions of Clause 3. That deals with another aspect of the driving test. Under the 1934 Act the Minister of Transport can, and does, require a different test to be passed by the man who comes up for examination on a motor bicycle, and the man who comes up in a car; but the motor cyclist, having passed his test will, if he is of full age, obtain a driving licence authorising him to drive not merely a motor cycle but also any kind of car or lorry. This clause enables the Minister to say that the man who has qualified on a motor cycle only may be granted a licence limited to the driving of motor cycles. The power of limitation is expressed in general terms, but before making any regulation in the matter the Minister, under the Act of 1930, is bound to consult representative organisations. These, my Lords, are the provisions of this Bill. It was gone through very carefully in the Standing Committee, and in the final Division on the Third Heading—which I think was really challenged, not because of any demerits of the Bill, but because it was hoped thereby to keep off another Bill, tactics sometimes pursued on a Friday afternoon in the House of Commons—it was passed by 117 to 3. I hope I shall be fortunate in securing a Second Reading for this Bill, as has happened to two other Bills this afternoon.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Jessel.)

THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH

My Lords, after the noble Lord's full explanation of the Bill I have very little to say on behalf of the Government. In fact I only rise to say that not only do we not wish to put any obstacle in the way of the Bill, but we very much hope that in due course it will find its way to the Statute Book. I know there are some who think that there has already been too much legislation on the subject of the control of road traffic, while, on the other hand, there are some who constantly wish to add to it. I wish to point out that the object of the measure is merely to clear up two or three particular points which experience of the working of existing Acts with regard to road traffic has shown us to exist. This is a Bill that was introduced by a private member in another place, and I hope your Lordships will take the opportunity which has been offered in consequence of taking advantage of this form of legislation. Obviously some time would elapse before an opportunity was given to the Government to deal with this particular question.

I only want to add a word on Clause 3. So far as Clause 3 is concerned I, for one, certainly was under the impression that if a learner obtained or qualified for a licence for a motor bicycle he would have to pass a further test before he could obtain a licence to drive a lorry or car, and I dare say a good many of your Lordships were under the same impression. However, this has proved not to be the case. As I understand the motoring industry raise no objection to the proposal in the Bill, I hope that it will be accepted by the House, and that it may make some small contribution to the cause of safety on the roads. So far as the Government know, the Bill as it now stands is satisfactory, and I hope that your Lordships will give it a Second Beading now and in due course pass it through its remaining stages.

On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.