§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
§ Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.
§ House in Committee accordingly:
§ [The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1:
§ Certain dealings with sand or ballast to be by weight or by the cubic yard.
§ 1.—(1) No person shall (whether on his own behalf or on behalf of another person) sell, agree to sell or agree to carry any sand or ballast otherwise than by weight or by the cubic yard:
§ Provided that this subsection shall not apply—
§
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE moved to add to subsection (1):
(f) in relation to any sale or agreement for the sale by a railway company of ashes, where such sale or agreement for the sale includes the conveyance by railway truck or wagon.
§ The noble Viscount said: The purpose of this Amendment is that railway companies should be exempted from having to sell their waste ashes by weight or by the cubic yard. It may seem a somewhat small point, but it is one to which railway companies at any rate attach considerable importance. As no doubt your Lordships are aware, these ashes are taken from the boilers of locomotives in the engine sheds all over the line and from boilers used for pumping water. There are no weighing facilities at these engine sheds and no storage accommodation. These ashes cannot be allowed to accumulate on the ground and have to be got away very quickly. The practice is for the railway companies to bring up any wagon available so that the ashes may be discharged into it and the wagon is taken right away.
§ If the railway companies have to weigh these ashes, it will mean either that they will have to calibrate their wagons to show cubic capacity—and I do not think it was the intention of the promoters of the Bill that railway wagons should be calibrated because under the interpretation clause railway wagons are exempted—or alternatively railway companies will have to calibrate a large number of 362 wagons on account of these ashes. The reason I say "a large number" is that the disposal of waste ashes does not mean traffic going from one particular point on the railway to another, but traffic all over the line wherever the ashes can be disposed of. I may perhaps mention that these ashes are sold solely by the wagon load at a very low price just sufficient to pay the cost of the transport facilities provided to take them to their destination. It is, I think, obvious that the railway companies must get rid of these ashes as quickly as possible and I know of no other means by which they can do so except the present method. If the railway companies have to calibrate their wagons because of these ashes, it will not only cause heavy expense to the companies—and in my opinion unnecessary expense—but will undoubtedly cause delay in getting rid of the ashes. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 21, at end insert the said new paragraph.—(Viscount Massereene.)
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREI regret that the Government cannot accept this Amendment because it would put railway companies in a privileged position. It would not only permit them to sell ashes otherwise than by weight or by the cubic yard, but would allow them, alone among road users, to convey sand and ballast by road in certain cases without complying with conditions that apply to all other road hauliers. The Amendment would also impede administration, since an inspector would often not be in a position to know whether or not a vehicle containing ashes came within the subsection or not. I know that the railway companies are aware that they will be subject to the provisions of this Bill as far as they are road users, and I believe there is no objection to that.
The noble Viscount said that unless this Amendment is passed they will have to calibrate their railway wagons, but he went on to answer himself: he said that it was quite true that in Clause 12 railway wagons were specially exempted. But, like all other hauliers, they will have to calibrate the wagons for any part of the journey which is by road, and as the railway companies must surely already have such vehicles for sand and ballast traffic, I do not think any great hardship can be involved. I do not think it will 363 cause the companies any great expense or hardship, and I am very much afraid I cannot accept the Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment negatived.
§ Clause 1 agreed to.
§ Clauses 2 and 3 agreed to.
§ Clause 4:
§ Conveyance notes in respect of sand or ballast.
§
4.—(1) The person in charge of any vehicle being used for conveying any sand or ballast on a journey any part of which is along a highway—
(b) shall produce the conveyance note at any time to, and at the request of, any inspector, and
§ (4) If any person contravenes or fails to comply with this section, or signs or uses, or causes to be signed or used, for the purposes of this section a conveyance note which contains a materially incorrect statement, he shall be guilty of an offence:
§ Provided that—
- (a) in any proceedings taken by virtue of this subsection in respect of a failure to carry, to produce or to deliver a conveyance note relating to any particular sand or ballast, it shall be a defence to prove that, at the material time, the sand or ballast weighed less than one ton and measured less than one cubic yard, and was either being conveyed in pursuance of such a sale or agreement as is mentioned in paragraph (a) of the proviso to subsection (1) of Section one of this Act or being conveyed otherwise than in pursuance of a sale or agreement for the sale or carriage of the sand or ballast; and
- (b) where, by reason of the weight or volume of any sand or ballast in a vehicle being found at any time to be less than the weight or volume, as the case may be, specified in the conveyance note relating thereto, any proceedings are, by virtue of this subsection, taken against the person then in charge of the vehicle in respect of the use of a conveyance note containing a materially incorrect statement, it shall be a defence for him to prove—
- (i) that he had not previously known of the existence of the deficiency, and could not by the exercise of reasonable care have previously discovered it; or
- (ii) that the deficiency is solely attributable to the draining away of normal moisture from the sand or ballast during the journey on which the vehicle was at the material time engaged, or, as the case may be, to the consolidation of the sand or ballast in the vehicle during that journey.
§ (5) Where the weight or volume of any sand or ballast in a vehicle is at any time found to be less than the weight or volume, 364 as the case may be, specified in the conveyance note relating thereto, then, for the purpose of any proceedings which may be taken by virtue of subsection (4) of this section, the weight or volume of the sand or ballast at that time shall, until the contrary is proved, be deemed to have been the weight or volume thereof at the time when the conveyance note was signed.
§ LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, at the beginning of the clause, to insert "Subject to the provisions of the next following subsection." The noble Lord said: May I begin by saying that all the Amendments on the Order Paper in my name have been put down to meet the views of my noble friend behind me, Viscount Bertie of Thame? I had the pleasure of meeting my noble friend in private yesterday and I think I am right in saying, without binding him in the least, that I am meeting his points. This first Amendment which has been called upon by the Lord Chairman is a necessary preliminary to the insertion of the proposed new subsection (2) at the end of line 33 which I shall come to later on. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 11, at the beginning insert (" Subject to the provisions of the next following subsection ").—(Lord Templemore.)
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEI beg leave to thank my noble friend for putting down a series of Amendments to meet the points which I have down on the Paper. What he has stated is substantially true; he has met me on the whole, subject to one remark which I shall venture to put before your Lordships later on.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD TEMPLEMORE moved to omit all words from paragraph (b) of subsection (1), except the first and last, and insert "on demand made by any inspector, and on production by the inspector, if so required, of such document as may be prescribed showing that he is an inspector, produce the conveyance note to that inspector." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is intended to take the place of the Amendment next on the Paper in the name of my noble friend. The object is to provide that where an inspector of weights and measures calls for the production of a conveyance note 365 he shall, if necessary, produce a paper or card to show that he is an inspector. The precise form of the document to be produced will be prescribed in the regulations to be made by the Board of Trade. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 20, leave out from (" shall ") to the second (" and ") in line 21, and insert the said new words.—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, after subsection (1), to insert:
(2) Nothing in the preceding subsection shall apply in relation to the conveyance of any sand or ballast the weight of which is less than one ton and the volume of which is less than one cubic yard, being sand or ballast conveyed—
§ The noble Lord said: This new subsection takes the place of proviso (a) to subsection (4). Paragraph (a) of the proviso to Clause 1 (1) provides that a sale of, or contract to sell or to carry a quantity of sand or ballast which is less than one ton and less than one cubic yard, need not be made by weight or by the cubic yard, and it is also the intention of the Bill that where the dealing is in such a small quantity the vehicle conveying the material need not have a conveyance note. Proviso (a) to subsection (4) of Clause 4 deals with this by saying that if the man in charge of a vehicle is prosecuted for not having a conveyance note, it shall be a defence to show that the quantity was less than one ton and less than one cubic yard, and also that the conveyance was in pursuance of a sale or agreement, such as is mentioned in paragraph (a) of the proviso to Clause 1 (1), or, alternatively, that the material was being conveyed otherwise than in pursuance of a sale or agreement. I do not think that it would be very likely, but the Government consider that this might have the effect of placing on the driver the onus of showing what was in the agreement covering the conveyance of the material, which he probably would not be able to do. Accordingly it is now proposed to make this exception in a different way by saying in effect that the obligation to carry a conveyance note shall not apply where the quantity of sand 366 or ballast is less than one ton or less than one cubic yard, and it is being conveyed in pursuance of such a sale or agreement as is mentioned in paragraph (a) of the proviso to Clause 1 (1) or that it is not being conveyed in pursuance of a sale or agreement. The latter, of course, would be the case if the purchaser of the sand or ballast were carting material which belonged to him. The general effect of all this is that, if someone buys, say, half a yard of sand and it is delivered to his house, he need not have a calibrated vehicle. On the other hand, if he buys three tons of sand and this is delivered even in quantities of a quarter or half a yard, he must have it conveyed in a calibrated vehicle.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 33, insert the said subsection (2).—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, in subsection (4), to leave out "or uses ". The noble Lord said: All these Amendments, and the Amendment lower down on page 8, hang together, and they are all designed to meet the views of my noble friend Viscount Bertie. The Government could not accept the Amendment of Viscount Bertie as it stands on page 8, line 4, because, although they have every sympathy with his intention, his Amendment would not really meet the case. His intention is presumably to obviate the possibility that the driver of a vehicle might be placed in the position of having to prove his innocence if he were prosecuted on a charge of having a discrepancy between the quantity found in his vehicle and that shown on the conveyance note. It was not the Government's intention that he should be placed in this position, but they agree that the clause as drafted might have this effect, and they are obliged to my noble friend for drawing attention to this point. If the necessary alteration in the clause could be made by the wording of the proposed Amendment, the Government would gladly accept it, but unfortunately the matter could not be put right so easily, and it has been found necessary to put down a series of Government Amendments, largely reconstructing the clause, in order to achieve the desired result. I beg to move the first of these Amendments.
367
§
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 19, leave out (" or uses ").—(Lord Templemore.)
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEAgain I am obliged to my noble friend, but I am rather surprised to hear that the Amendment standing in my name would not meet the case. On reading the word "reasonable" in the penalty clause it is immediately a suspect word after the Cotton Bill and the Beet Sugar Bill which were amended in a similar way to the Amendment which stands in my name. Having my suspicions aroused, I wanted to have them substantiated, so I went to a noble and very learned Lord and asked him what he thought about it. He said: "That is going back to the bad old ways" and he very kindly drafted this Amendment. But on the whole, although there are one or two remarks which I shall have to make a little later on my noble friend's Amendment on page 8, I am very much obliged to the noble Lord for having moved the Amendment, which I hope your Lordships will accept.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 7, line 20, leave out (" or used ").
§ Page 7, line 23, leave out from the beginning to the end of line 15 on page 8.
§ Page 8, line 16, leave out (" (5) ").
§ Page 8, line 21, leave out (" subsection (4) of this section ") and insert (" this subsection ").—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§
LORD TEMPLEMORE moved to insert after subsection (5):
(6) No vehicle conveying any sand or ballast shall proceed on any journey in relation to which a conveyance note stating the weight or volume of the sand or ballast is required by this section to be carried, unless the person in charge of the vehicle at the time when it first becomes necessary that a statement of the weight or volume of the sand or ballast should be contained in the conveyance note has satisfied himself, so far as he reasonably can, that the said weight or volume is at that time correctly stated in the conveyance note, and if this subsection is contravened in the case of any vehicle, the person in charge of the vehicle at the said time shall be guilty of an offence.
(7) If any person in charge of a vehicle conveying sand or ballast uses in relation thereto, for the purposes of this section, a conveyance note which to his knowledge contains a materially incorrect statement, he shall be guilty of an offence:
368
Provided that no person shall, by virtue of this subsection, be liable to any penalty by reason only of the weight or volume of any sand or ballast in a vehicle being found to be less than the weight or volume, as the case may be, specified in the conveyance note relating thereto, if it is proved that the deficiency is solely attributable to the draining away of normal moisture from the sand or ballast during the journey on which the vehicle was at the material time engaged, or, as the case may be, to the consolidation of the sand or ballast in the vehicle during that journey.
§ The noble Lord said: I beg to move this Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 25, insert the said new subsections.—(Lord Templemore.)
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEThis is the Amendment to which I wish to draw your Lordships' attention. When my noble and learned friend saw this Amendment yesterday we thought that the new subsection (7) was quite all right; but, with regard to subsection (6), we were not quite so sure, because we thought it adds to the burdens of a lorry driver, which are already quite sufficient. For example, what we would like to know is this. Has the lorry driver got to test the accuracy of a weighing machine? I think that is all that I have to say on the subject, and again I thank my noble friend.
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREI would like to make this quite clear to my noble friend. I had hoped I had satisfied him, but I assure him that the last thing we wish to do is to place any unnecessary restrictions or responsibilities on the lorry driver. My noble friend has suggested that this new subsection places too heavy a burden. This I do not think is the case. All the subsection does is to require him to satisfy himself, so far as he reasonably can, that the quantity of material entered in the conveyance note agrees with the quantity loaded in the vehicle at the beginning of the journey. It is provided, however, that no person shall by virtue of this subsection be liable to any penalty by reason only of the weight or volume of any sand or ballast in a vehicle being found to be less than the weight or volume specified in the conveyance note, if it is proved that the deficiency is solely attributable to the draining away of normal moisture from the sand or ballast during the journey. If, in fact, the driver cannot find out what 369 the weight is at the beginning of the journey then it is not reasonable to expect him to, and the subsection will not apply. It must be remembered—and I would like to impress this upon my noble friend and your Lordships—that the reason why this Bill is being introduced is that a great many malpractices have occurred in the past in connection with the conveyance of sand or ballast by road, and surely it is not unreasonable that the driver should take such steps as are within his power to see that he does not start the journey with an incorrect load.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEI think my noble friend has sufficiently answered the point which I raised.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 5:
§ Inspection, weighing and measuring of sand or ballast and vehicles conveying it.
§ 5.—(1) Any inspector may, so far as it is reasonable so to do for the purpose of giving effect to this Act, inspect any vehicle which is being used for conveying any sand or ballast, and either—
§ (2) If, in exercising with respect to a vehicle any of his powers under the preceding subsection, an inspector finds—
- (a) that a conveyance note produced to him in relation to any sand or ballast in the vehicle contains a materially incorrect statement, or
§ then, without prejudice to any proceedings which may be taken by reason of the matters aforesaid, the inspector shall cause the conveyance note to be corrected in such manner as may be prescribed, or, as the ease may be, shall do, or request the person in charge of the vehicle to do, all such things as are necessary to secure that the vehicle is marked, as required by this Act with a tare weight mark accurately indicating the tare weight of the vehicle, and that any other marks on the vehicle purporting to indicate its tare weight are removed or obliterated.
§ LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, at the beginning of subsection (1), after "Any inspector," to insert "on producing, if so required, such document as may be prescribed showing that he is an inspector." The noble Lord said: This Amendment deals with the same point as the Amendment to Clause 4 (1) (b). It simply requires the inspector before dealing with a vehicle to produce a document (in a form to be prescribed by the Board of Trade) showing that he is an inspector.
370
§
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 28, after (" inspector ") insert (" on producing, if so required, such document as may be prescribed showing that he is an inspector ").—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (2), after "marked", to insert "within a reasonable time." The noble Viscount said: I think this is a self-explanatory and harmless Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 23, after (" marked ") insert (" within a reasonable time ").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREI am sure my noble friend is light in saying that this is a very harmless Amendment, but I am afraid I cannot accept it. Clause 5 (2) provides in effect that, if an inspector finds that a vehicle used for carrying sand or ballast by weight is not marked with a tare weight or is incorrectly marked he
shall do, or request the person in charge of the vehicle to do, all such things as are necessary to secure that the vehicle is marked as required by this Act….Lord Bertie's Amendment would make this read, "to secure that the vehicle is marked within a reasonable time as required by this Act." If the Amendment is intended merely to provide against the person in charge of a vehicle being required to take steps then and there to mark the vehicle in circumstances where this course would not be reasonable, then the Amendment is unnecessary; because the clause as drafted implies that a reasonable opportunity will be given for the marking or the correction of the marking. There will, however, be cases in which it is found that the tare weight mark understates the actual weight of the vehicle. The effect will be that when loaded and put on a weighbridge the vehicle will appear to be carrying a greater weight of material than is actually the case. Consequently, so long as the incorrect mark remains on the vehicle the customer may be cheated every time. In such a case the mark should clearly be corrected as soon as the error is discovered and before the vehicle is used again for carrying sand or ballast by weight; and in the opinion of the Government it would be quite wrong to allow the vehicle 371 to remain in use for this purpose for "a reasonable time" (whatever period that may be) before the correction is made. The Government have gone to a certain amount of trouble and I have met my noble friend in every other case, but I am afraid this time I must refuse his Amendment. I hope he will not press it.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEMy noble friend has been so reasonable that I do not think I should be justified in doing so.
§ EARL PEELI am rather interested to know there is a little rift within the lute of this arrangement made between Lord Templemore and Lord Bertie. Up to the present moment I do not know who was responsible for the Bill. Was it Lord Templemore or was it Lord Bertie? He laid stress upon the fact that an arrangement had been made—that, in these days of Government suspicion, an arrangement had been entered into between Lord Bertie and Lord Templemore privately. Great stress was laid upon the word "private." I have a great opinion of the sagacity of Lord Bertie, but I do not know whether I and other members of your Lordships' House are supposed to be bound by a private arrangement entered into by those two noble Lords. If they are capable of legislating for the whole House there is nothing more to say, but it is rather remarkable, and I should like to know whether the refusals to accept Amendments are also part of the arrangement made privately. They may be part of the picture of this private arrangement entered into between the two noble Lords.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEI am sure that my noble friend Lord Peel, if he had the opportunity to enter into an arrangement with respect to a Bill, would do so.
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREI think perhaps I owe a word of explanation to Earl Peel, and perhaps I ought not to have said that I had had a private meeting with Lord Bertie. The noble Earl has greater experience than I have and I am sure he has often—I will not say made a private arrangement, but has seen his opponents beforehand in order to get a Bill through expeditiously.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
§ Remaining clauses agreed to.