HL Deb 01 July 1936 vol 101 cc354-60

Amendments reported (according to Order).

Clause 2:

Notice of discharge of trade effluents into local authorities' sewers.

(2) A local authority, on receiving a trade effluent notice served on them by the owner or occupier of any trade premises, shall forthwith send a copy of the notice to any joint sewerage board of which the local authority are a constituent authority, and to every other sewerage authority being an authority into whose sewers or sewage disposal works the first-mentioned local authority are for the time being entitled to discharge sewage from their sewers.

LORD GAINFORD moved, in subsection (2), after "notice," where that word secondly occurs, to insert "(a)". The noble Lord said: My Lords, my first three Amendments have been agreed with the Dock and Harbour Authorities Association. The effect of the Amendments is that where a trade effluent notice is served on a local authority whose sewers have an outfall into any harbour or tidal waters or are connected with sewers or sewage disposal works having such an outfall the local authority shall be required to send a notice of such trade effluent to the harbour authority or the conservancy authority affected. I beg to move the first of these Amendments.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 25, at the beginning insert (" (a) ").—(Lord Gainford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD GAINFORD

My Lords, the next two Amendments are consequential. I beg to move.

Amendments moved—

Page 3, line 26, after (" and ") insert (" (b) ").

Page 3, line 30, at end insert (" and >(c) where the sewers of the first-mentioned authority have an outfall into any harbour or tidal waters or are connected directly or indirectly with a sewer or sewage disposal works having such an outfall, to any harbour authority or conservancy authority within the meaning of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, being an authority having jurisdiction in respect of the harbour or tidal waters ").—(Lord Gainford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 5:

By-laws of local authorities.

5.—(1) A local authority may and, if required by the Minister, shall make bylaws with respect to the discharge of any trade effluent, or trade effluent of any particular nature or composition, from trade premises into a sewer of the local authority, and such by-laws may provide for all or any of the following matters, that is to say:—

(d) For requiring that, before the trade effluent enters the sewer, there shall be eliminated from the effluent any such property contained therein as may be specified in the by-laws, being a property as to which the local authority are satisfied that it would, in combination with any matter passing through their sewers, make specially difficult or expensive the treatment or disposal of the sewage from those sewers;

LORD GAINFORD moved, in paragraph (d), to leave out "are" and insert "or the Minister are or is." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this and the two following Amendments to this clause in my name have also been agreed with the dock and harbour authorities. The effect of them is to extend the purposes for which bylaws may be made so as to enable the local authority to require that before the trade effluent enters the sewer there shall be eliminated from the effluent any matter or property which might cause or tend to cause injury or obstruction to the navigation on, or the use of, any harbour or tidal waters into which the sewage containing the trade effluent may be discharged. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 39, leave out (" are ") and insert (" or the Minister are or is ").—(Lord Gainford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD GAINFORD

My Lords, the next Amendments are consequential.

Amendments moved—

Page 6, line 41, after (" sewers ") insert (" (i) ").

Page 6, line 43, after (" sewers ") insert (" or (ii) where the trade effluent is to be, or is, discharged into a sewer having an outfall into any harbour or tidal waters or into a sewer which connects directly or indirectly with a sewer or sewage disposal works having such an outfall, cause or tend to cause injury or obstruction to the navigation on, or the use of, such harbour or tidal waters ").—(Lord Gainford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 10:

Entry and inspection of trade premises.

Provided that the right of entry conferred by this subsection shall extend only to enable an officer of the local authority to have access to any meter provided for the purpose of measuring the volume of trade effluent being discharged from the premises into the sewer and to such inspection chamber or manhole as will enable him readily to take samples of such effluent and to the connection between such inspection chamber or manhole and the sewer.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, at the end of the proviso in subsection (1), to insert "and for the purpose of testing the accuracy of such meter." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this is an Amendment which I foreshadowed in Committee. I looked upon it as a very harmless Amendment and one which I thought strengthened the Bill. I understand from my noble friend Lord Gage that the Ministry of Health do not like it. The reason for putting it down is that these meters may be tampered with, and I think it is only right that the inspector should have access to the meters to see whether they are in order or not, if he suspects that they have been tampered with. But I should like to hear what my noble friend in charge of the Bill says and also what the noble Viscount, Lord Gage, has to say.

Amendment moved— Page 12, line 6, at end insert (" and for the purpose of testing the accuracy of such meter ").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

LORD GAINFORD

My Lords, I must apologise to the noble Viscount for having intimated to him that so far as I was concerned I did not see, and so far as the promoters of this Bill were concerned, they did not see, any objection to this proposal of the noble Viscount. Obviously, where a meter exists, it is very important that it should be accurate and should be tested for its accuracy. I understand, however, that the Ministry of Health take the view that this Amendment is not necessary and rather inappropriate, because it has been found quite impossible to check and test a meter while it is in position on the premises. It must first be removed and taken to a suitable testing place. It is thought undesirable that people should go upon private property and abstract or take away a meter from private premises and test it elsewhere, and as the Amendment does not purport to enable a meter to be removed so as to enable an officer of the local authority to test the accuracy of the meter, the Amendment would fail in its operation. Those grounds are considered sufficient to justify the Ministry in thinking that these words are inappropriate.

VISCOUNT GAGE

My Lords, the Ministry take very much the view which has been explained by my noble friend Lord Gainford. They feel that under the clause as drafted the council's officer has the right of access to the meter and, by subsection (1) (b), to take such steps as may be necessary for the ascertainment of the composition and volume of the trade effluent discharged. Clause 5 (1) (h) gives the Council power to make bylaws to secure the testing of the meter, which could not be carried out during the inspector's visit. The Amendment is open to another objection which I hardly dare to put forward—namely, the Ministry do not consider that the noble Viscount's Amendment is strictly grammatical.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

My Lords, I challenge my noble friend to tell me chapter and verse in what respect the Amendment is not grammatical. In reply to the other observations which have been made upon this Amendment, I would ask, do they not wish these meters to be tested to see whether they have been tampered with or not? If so, then I will leave it to the noble Lord in charge of the Bill or the noble Viscount, Lord Gage, to propose an Amendment on Third Reading. In the meantime I ask leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 14:

Incidental powers of Minister.

14.—(1) The Minister, upon application made to him by any local authority or joint sewerage board or by the owner or occupier of trade premises within the district of the local authority or board, may by order make such amendments or adaptations of any local Act relating to that authority or board as appear to him to be necessary for the purpose of bringing the provisions of that Act into conformity with the provisions of this Act.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert: Any order made under this subsection shall he laid before each House of Parliament for a period of thirty days during the Session of Parliament, and, if before the expiration of that period either House resolves that the order be annulled, it shall be void, but without prejudice to the making of a new order: Provided that in reckoning any such period of thirty days as aforesaid no account shall be taken of any time during which both Houses are adjourned for more than four days. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, the Amendment as printed in the Marshalled List reads "Any Order made under this section" and so on, but I have been asked by the noble Viscount, Lord Gage, to move it with the word "subsection" in place of "section" and to put it at the end of subsection (1) instead of at the end of the clause. I moved a similar Amendment in Committee and it was then resisted by the noble Lord in charge of the Bill and by my noble friend Lord Gage. Since then I have been in communication with the Ministry of Health and they realise that this is a quasi-Henry VIII clause and that some check should be put upon it. I am very grateful to the Ministry for having drafted the Amendment for me and especially for giving an extra two days in which objection can be taken.

Amendment moved— Page 13, line 29, at end insert the said words.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

LORD GAINFORD

My Lords, I should like to say in reference to this that in the Public Health Bill which has been before the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills the Committee accepted the same principle. Therefore it seems appropriate to insert this Amendment in this Bill.

VISCOUNT GAGE

My Lords, an explanation has already been given of the attitude of the Ministry in regard to this Amendment, but I should like to explain that the reason why they suggested to the noble Viscount a slight alteration in his Amendment is that as the Amendment was put down on the Paper it would apply to the whole clause whereas obviously it is intended only to apply to that part of the clause which deals with the Minister's power to alter Acts of Parliament.

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW)

My Lords, I think that one point ought to be made clear in regard to what the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, has said. I believe the Public Health Bill will come before your Lordships on the Report stage tomorrow, and I understand from my noble friend below me that a similar procedure will be introduced into both Bills, because obviously it would be very inconvenient to have two different procedures for two analogous matters. I am glad to have an assurance that exactly the same provision will be made in both Bills.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

My Lords, I understand that the Ministry are drafting an Amendment similar in wording to the one put down in my name on the Public Health Bill.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 15 [Interpretation]:

LORD GAINFORD

My Lords, there is a drafting Amendment to this clause. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 24, leave out (" and ") and insert (" or ").—(Lord Gainford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 16 [Short title, construction, citation, extent and commencement]:

LORD GAINFORD

My Lords, there is also a drafting Amendment to this clause. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 15, leave out (" drains ") and insert (" drained ").—(Lord Gainford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule [Provision as to making and publication of by-laws]:

LORD GAINFORD

My Lords, the three Amendments to the Schedule standing in my name on the Paper have been agreed with the Dock and Harbour Authorities Association. The effect is to require notice of any proposed by-laws to be given to harbour or conservancy authorities which may be affected by the discharge of trade effluents under the bylaws. I beg to move.

Amendments moved—

Page 16, line 30, after (" consult ") insert (" (a) ").

Page 16, line 32, leave out (" and ") and insert (" (b) ")

Page 16, line 35, after (" sewers ") insert (" and,

(c) where the sewers of the first-mentioned authority have an outfall into any harbour or tidal waters or are connected directly or indirectly with a sewer or sewage disposal works having such an outfall, any harbour authority or conservancy authority within the meaning of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, being an authority having jurisdiction in respect of the harbour or tidal waters.")—(Lord Gainford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.