HL Deb 30 April 1936 vol 100 cc731-7

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

LORD ELTISLEY

My Lords, I endeavoured to make clear the purpose of this Bill in the debate which took place on Second Reading on March 24. I do not wish to weary the House with a further disquisition on the objects of the Bill, but in view of the lengthy nature of the Amendments on the Order Paper perhaps I ought to remind your Lordships that during that debate I undertook that Amendments should be introduced in Committee to make clear certain points which were said to be left in doubt by the Bill as it stood. I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Eltisley.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

Appointment of examiners, etc.

(3) The Electricity Commissioners may prescribe the fees to be paid to meter examiners by any consumer or the undertakers as the case may be in respect of the certifying or examination of any meter. Provided that any fees taken by a meter examiner being also an officer of the Electricity Commissioners appointed under subsection (2) of this section shall be paid by him into the fund established by the Electricity Commissioners under subsection (3) of Section twenty-nine of the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919.

(4) Meter examiners appointed under this Act shall have the powers and duties in relation to meters which are conferred or imposed on electric inspectors by Sections thirty-six, fifty, fifty-one and fifty-seven of the Schedule of 1899 and any corresponding provision and such powers and duties shall cease to be exercised by electric inspectors accordingly, and the said Sections fifty, fifty-one and fifty-seven and any corresponding provision shall have effect in relation to meters as if references to a meter examiner appointed under this Act were substituted for references to an electric inspector.

LORD ELTISLEY moved, in subsection (3), immediately before the proviso, to insert, "and may prescribe different fees in relation to different areas." The noble Lord said: The first sentence of subsection (3) reads:

" The Electricity Commissioners may prescribe the fees to be paid to meter examiners by any consumer or the undertakers as the case may be in respect of the certifying or examination of any meter."

The purpose of the manuscript Amendment I have handed in is to meet the case of certain areas in which special circumstances may arise to justify an alteration in the fees prescribed by the Electricity Commissioners. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 22, after (" meter ") insert (" and may prescribe different fees in relation to different areas ").—(Lord Eltisley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD ELTISLEY moved, at the beginning of subsection (4), to insert "Subject as hereinafter provided." The noble Lord said: This Amendment and the other two Amendments in line 8 and line 11 are all drafting Amendments, consequential upon the insertion of the new proviso to the subsection.

THE LORD CHAIRMAN

With your Lordships' permission, I will put the three Amendments together.

Amendments moved—

Page 2, line 4, at the beginning insert (" Subject as hereinafter provided ")

Page 2, line 8, leave out (" and any corresponding provision ")

Page 2, line 11, leave out (" and any corresponding provision ").—(Lord Eltisley.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD ELTISLEY moved to insert at the end of subsection (4):

" Provided that this subsection shall, in its application to the Administrative County of London, have effect as if for the words ' fifty-one and fifty-seven ', in each place where those words occur in this subsection, there were substituted the words ' and fifty-one ' ".

The noble Lord said: This proviso is put in to deal with the point that has been raised by the London County Council and has been agreed with them. Under the Bill as originally drafted all the powers originally conferred on electrical inspectors by Sections 36, 50, 51 and 57 of the Electric Lighting (Clauses) Act, 1899, relating to meters—such as, for example, inspection, testing, certification and examining—will in this Bill be conferred upon meter examiners. The City of London and the County of London are not, however, themselves electrical undertakers and are not likely to become so; in fact I believe that the London County Council are debarred by Statute from becoming electrical undertakers. They have appointed electrical inspectors in the past, and under this Amendment they will retain the right, which they have now had For many years and which they have exercised, of themselves appointing electrical inspectors.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 14, at end, insert the said proviso.—(Lord Eltisley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

LORD ELTISLEY moved, after Clause 1, to insert the following new clause:

Apparatus for meter testing etc.

.—(1) Subject as hereinafter provided, it shall be the duty of any authorised undertakers to provide, and to maintain in proper condition, such suitable apparatus as may be prescribed or approved by the Electricity Commissioners for the examination, testing and regulating of meters used or intended to be used in connection with the supply of electricity by those undertakers, and to afford to meter examiners appointed under this Act all necessary facilities for the use of the said apparatus for the purpose of the exercise and performance of their powers and duties in relation to such meters as aforesaid:

Provided that the Electricity Commissioners, if satisfied with respect to any authorised undertakers that any such apparatus provided by some other person is available for the purpose of the examination, testing and regulating of such meters as aforesaid, and that satisfactory arrangements have been or are about to be made for the use of the apparatus for that purpose by the said undertakers, may by order direct that this subsection shall not apply to those undertakers; and any such order may be revoked by a subsequent order of the Commissioners without prejudice to the making of a new order.

(2) Any two or more authorised undertakers may with the approval of, and shall if required by, the Electricity Commissioners enter into any carry into effect arrangements—

  1. (a) for the provision of such apparatus as aforesaid by one or more of the parties to the arrangements for the use of the parties thereto, or any of them; and
  2. (b) for the examination, testing and regulating, by the party providing any apparatus as aforesaid, of meters used or intended to be used in connection with the supply of electricity by the other parties, or any of them;
and may enter into, and carry into effect, arrangements for the repairing and reconditioning, by any party to the arrangements of meters used or intended to be used in connection with the supply of electricity by the other parties or any of them.

Any such arrangements as aforesaid shall be made on such terms and conditions as may he agreed between them or, if the arrangements were entered into in pursuance of a requirement of the Electricity Commissioners on such terms and conditions as may, in default of such agreement, be settled by the Commissioners.

(3) So long as there are in force any such arrangements as aforesaid for the provision of apparatus by any authorised undertakers those undertakers shall have the same duties under subsection (1) of this section in relation to the meters which they are required by the arrangements to examine test and regulate, as they have under that subsection in relation to meters used or intended to be used in connection with the supply of electricity by the undertakers themselves.

The noble Lord said: I will not weary the Committee by reading the new clause, which is a very lengthy one. I should just like to add these words in support of it. The certification and testing of new meters, and also the certification and testing of existing meters, within the next ten years are contemplated by a later Amendment and will involve the setting up of efficient testing stations and apparatus for equipping those stations. Now it is proposed by this Amendment that undertakers who have already power to do so without further authority—and many of them have already in fact done so—should be placed under a duty to provide meter testing apparatus. It is also proposed that, in order to avoid any unnecessary duplication of individual stations, which would probably result if every undertaker built a station for himself, undertakers should be given a power to enter into arrangements for the common use of central testing stations. It is contemplated that central testing stations will be set up in suitable areas and used by all the undertakers who are giving supply in those areas.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 14, after Clause 1 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Eltisley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2:

As to existing meters.

2.—(1) An existing meter shall notwithstanding anything in any Act or Order to the contrary be deemed until it is disconnected and removed to be and always to have been an appropriate meter duly certified for the purposes of Sections forty-nine to fifty-nine of the Schedule of 1899 and of any corresponding provision.

(2) For the purposes of this section the expression "existing meter" means any meter installed at the date of the passing of this Act or at any time after that date but before the appointed day on the premises of an ordinary consumer for the purpose of ascertaining the value of the supply.

LORD ELTISLEY moved to leave out Clause 2 and insert the following new clause:—

Transitional provisions as to existing meters.

2.—(1) Subject as hereinafter provided, every meter to which this section applies shall be deemed for all purposes to be a proper meter for ascertaining the value of the supply, and the register of any such meter shall be evidence, but not conclusive evidence, of that value, and the Schedule of 1899 shall apply in relation to any such meter as aforesaid as if it were a certified meter within the meaning of that Schedule:

Provided that Section fifty-seven of the said Schedule shall not apply in relation to any meter to which this section applies.

(2) This section shall apply to every meter installed on the premises of an ordinary consumer for the purpose of ascertaining the value of the supply, being a meter which has been installed on those premises for that purpose before the appointed day (except any meter which is a certified meter within the meaning of the Schedule of 1899, or is the subject of a special agreement between the consumer and the undertakers), but shall cease to apply to any meter at the time when it is first disconnected and removed after the beginning of the appointed day, or at the expiration of ten years from the beginning of that day, whichever first occurs, except in so far as it may be material to adduce the reading of the register of the meter as evidence of the value of the supply in any previous period.

(3) In this section the expression "the value of the supply" has the same meaning as in the Schedule of 1899.

The noble Lord said: This Amendment is designed to remedy the existing position under which the majority of the six million existing meters are not certified. It is impracticable to have all these meters certified forthwith, and the cost of so doing would fall heavily on the consumers, as I explained when I moved the Second Reading of the Bill recently in the House. Clause 2 of the Bill was criticised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Roche, in a debate which took place on the Second Reading of the Bill, on the ground of its retrospective effect. As a result of that criticism the clause has been redrafted in the form in which it now stands in this Amendment. Its effect is to make any existing meter evidence, though not conclusive evidence, of the value of the supply; so that, while the meter is not in the same category as a properly certified meter, which, by Section 57 of the 1899 Act, is conclusive evidence, these meters which have not been certified and which are now installed are nevertheless to be taken as evidence of the value of the supply which the Court may accept in any proceedings instituted by the undertaker for the recovery of an amount due for electricity. Lord Roche has been called away and is unable to take part in this debate and say a word in support of this clause, but the clause has been approved by him and I have his authority to say so in moving this Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 2, leave out Clause 2 and insert the said new clause.—(Lord Eltisley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3:

Definitions.

3. In this Act unless the context otherwise requires—

" The appointed day" means the first day of January nineteen hundred and thirty-seven;

" Corresponding provision "means a provision corresponding to the provision of the Schedule to the Electric Lighting (Clauses) Act, 1899 (as amended by any subsequent Act), in relation to which the expression is used and contained in any Act or Order relating to the supply of electricity which does not incorporate the said Schedule.

LORD ELTISLEY moved to make the definition of "appointed day" read as follows: ' The appointed day ' means such day as the Minister of Transport may by order appoint. The noble Lord said: This Amendment has been introduced in order to afford sufficient time for the completion of all the administrative details necessary in connection with the appointment of these new meter examiners.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 28, leave out from (" means ") to the end of line 29 and insert (" such day as the Minister of Transport may by order appoint ").—(Lord Eltisley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD ELTISLEY moved to leave out the definition of "Corresponding provision" and insert: (2) Any reference in this Act to the Schedule of 1899 or to any provision of that Schedule shall be construed as including a reference to the corresponding provision of any Act or Order which does not incorporate that Schedule or that provision thereof, as the case may be. The noble Lord said: This is a drafting Amendment designed to avoid the repetition of the expression "corresponding provision" throughout the Bill.

Amendment moved— Page 2, leave out from the beginning of line 36 to the end of line 5 on page 3 and insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Eltisley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clause agreed to.