HL Deb 07 April 1936 vol 100 cc498-504

Read 3a. with the Amendments (according to Order).

Clause 6 [Claims for benefit and payment of benefit through the Post Office]:

LORD PHILLIMORE moved to leave out Clause 6. The noble Lord said: My Lords, possibly it will be convenient, and in order, to deal with the new Clause 15, which is to be substituted for Clause 6. On that I have to say that I hope the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, will not, in view of his remarks during the recent debate, think that when I have withdrawn my clause I am going about, by the cheapest but perhaps not the most honest way, to get nomination. The Government have, I think, always viewed the first of my two Amendments with considerable sympathy, and not without some trouble we have now agreed the wording of the new Clause 15. There were difficulties raised by my original Amendment, and it is due, I think, to my supporters to say that, in my opinion at any rate, nothing of value in my original Amendment has been lost by the new clause. In other words, we get both easy access by the man to the place where he can receive benefit, and we get the man kept on the whole within the rural atmosphere to which he belongs. I should like to say how grateful I am to the Minister and also, and in particular, to the noble Lord, Lord Hutchison, who is in charge of the Bill here, for all the efforts which he made yesterday to bring about agreement. Perhaps it will be convenient if I say that when I do move Clause 15 it will be on the understanding, first, that the Government secure the passage of that clause and of the other Amendment through the House of Commons and, secondly, that the new regulations will be brought forward without avoidable delay. As to that I have no doubt. Perhaps it is not necessary for me to add a thirdly, which is that these regulations be truly conceived and administered in the spirit of the Amendment.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 6.—(Lord Phillimore.)

LORD MARLEY

My Lords, I think this compromise represents a happy issue out of most of our afflictions. Certainly with regard to the Post Office decision, as far as I can understand it after consultation with my colleagues, I believe it does represent—and perhaps the Minister will tell us this—the chance for a decision in an area as to whether the Post Office or a labour exchange will be the means of administering the Act. In other words, there will be a fair choice, and consideration of the position of the unemployed agricultural worker, and of how to make his task when unemployed less onerous that it would have been under the Bill as originally presented. With regard to the second part of what we are going to discuss—namely, the alteration of the Schedule—I am not entirely happy about that, but I do not propose to raise any question in this House. I propose to leave it to be dealt with, if in fact it needs to be dealt with, in another place.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7 [Special arrangements with associations]:

LORD PHILLIMORE moved to leave out Clause 7. The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving to leave out Clause 7, I shall deal with the alterations which have been made by agreement to my second Amendment. As a fact that Amendment divided itself into two halves. As to the first half, there is no disagreement between what is now put forward and what was put forward by me last week. The only difference is one of wording. The second half of my Amendment is, however, dropped, and it is dropped for what I cannot help thinking is an extraordinary reason. The Amendment proposed that such sums as the Ministry had to expend on dealing with claims should be handed over to approved societies in bulk in so far as members of approved societies or trade unions were concerned. The reason this part of the Amendment has been dropped is, I am told—and it has been reiterated to my rather incredulous ears—that it actually costs the Ministry of Labour more to pass the money through the trade unions or approved societies than it does to hand it out directly itself. I am bound to believe what I am told, but it is a most extraordinary fact. As it is a fact, the approved society or trade union would be worse off under my original Amendment than they would be if I left it alone, and so, not unnaturally, I have left it alone.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 7.—(Lord Phillimore.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD ELTISLEY

My Lords, on a point of order, I wish to draw attention to a small point under Clause 13, and I do not know whether it would be in order to do so.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I am very much afraid it would not be in order. This House is rather strict about Amendments after Third Reading. Such Amendments can only be moved after due notice has been given and if the Amendments appear on the Order Paper. Manuscript Amendments are not in order.

LORD ELTISLEY

I do not desire to move an Amendment. I merely wish to speak on a point which arises on Clause 13.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

As the noble Lord knows, I have no authority to rule in this House, but I think he will find, if he inquires of the authorities, that in the case of Amendments on the Third Reading the only things that can be discussed are the particular Amendments which are set down; we cannot discuss any part of the Bill which is not subject to amendment.

LORD PHILLIMORE moved, after Clause 14, to insert the following new clause: 15. As soon as may be after the passing of this Act, the Minister shall consult with the Postmaster-General and, subject to his concurrence, shall make Regulations under the principal Act so far as it appears to them to be practicable and reasonable for the purpose of enabling persons residing in rural areas to make claims for, and to obtain payment of, agricultural benefit at a post office within a reasonable distance of the place where they reside.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have already explained that this clause contains all that was of value in the old Clause 6. Before I sit down, I may perhaps be allowed to thank my supporters for all the assistance I received both during the original debate and since.

Amendment moved—

After Clause 14, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Phillimore.)

LORD ELTISLEY

My Lords, before this Amendment is finally disposed of, as the mover has referred to the need of issuing regulations in respect of this and other matters in the Bill as speedily as possible, may I—and I hope I shall remain strictly in order—refer to the special difficulty that confronts drainage authorities? The difficulty is to find into which category the various non-administrative workers employed by the different kinds of drainage authorities, urban and rural, should fall. The present Bill removes many of the hardships which have existed up to now, and in an answer given on the previous occasion the noble Lord in charge of the Bill referred to the fact that all workers employed by drainage authorities would in future be insured persons. At present men engaged in identically similar tasks, but engaged by different authorities, are sometimes insured and sometimes uninsured. What the drainage authorities desire to be informed on as speedily as may be practicable is to what category these various workers will be allocated. I would press that a memorandum or set of regulations should be issued by the Minister of Labour as soon as possible after the passing of this Bill to make that point perfectly clear and assist drainage authorities out of their difficulty.

THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD HUTCHISON OF MONTROSE)

My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord, I would say that we recognise the difficulty of those who are employed under the two categories of insurance, the industrial and the agricultural. With regard to the landward side of drainage, it has been ruled that these men are employed in agriculture, but where the men move from one kind of drainage work to another it has been laid down that they can draw both insurances if they are so qualified, but that they can draw only one at a time. As regards issuing regulations, in the Bill as laid down the Minister may issue regulations, and he assures me he will issue regulations. The Ministry will take all measures they can to inform those authorities who employ drainage workers as to the exact position in which their people are placed.

LORD ELTISLEY

I am much obliged to the noble Lord.

LORD HUTCHISON OF MONTROSE

As regards this new clause, I should like to say just one word. I assure the noble Lord opposite that his interpretation is right. Further, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Phillimore, and his friends for the very great consideration with which they have met us in this matter. His Majesty's Government are beholden to them, and they accept this Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Fifth Schedule:

FIFTH SCHEDULE.
Consequential and Minor Amendments of Principal Act.
Provision to be amended. Amendments.

LORD PHILLIMORE moved to insert the following in the references to the principal Act: Section seventy—At the end thereof there shall be inserted the following subsection— (3) For the purpose of determining in relation to persons employed in insurable employment in agriculture the excess which must be payable under the rules of an association in order to enable a special arrangement with the association to be made or continued, subsection (1) of this section shall have effect as if the amounts mentioned in paragraph (a) and paragraph (b) thereof were reduced by one-half.'

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment as printed.

Amendment moved—

Fifth Schedule, page 19, line 47, at end insert the said new words.—(Lord Phillimore.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD HUTCHISON OF MONTROSE

My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill do pass.

Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Hutchison of Montrose.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The noble Lord, Lord Eltisley, now has his opportunity.

LORD ELTISLEY

My point has been satisfactorily cleared up.

On Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.